Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] oldest purely 'fiat' international boundary?
Date: Dec 07, 2001 @ 02:49
Author: Ray Milefsky ("Ray Milefsky" <mrrayj@...>)
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Ancient boundaries were drawn by extending the frontier of civilization (pomerium in Latin) out beyond city walls into the  realms of the barbarian -- not by first drawing lines on paper (or sheepskin) separating territory, but by establishing limits based on landmarks (physical features for the most part) reflecting extent of rule.   The Great Wall and Hadrian's Wall are the most notable examples of the extension of the frontier delimiting civilization from barbary.   Nomadic peoples today still see the limits of their territories as the extent to which they graze their animals during the yearly migration and not a line which abutts someone else's lands.  Last year Saudi Arabia and Yemen delimited a boundary based on a series of points that will be demarcated not on straight line segments or land contours but the limits of local Bedouin rule (a real problem as the tribesmen don't consider themselves to be either Saudi or Yemeni and don't perceive their defined worlds as lines in the sand). 
 
The late 19th Century Durand Line that separates Afghanistan from Pakistan was based on the British deciding the limit of their administration over colonial India.   Beyond it lay unmanageable fighting tribesmen.  Russia drew a similar line from the north along the Amu Darya (Oxus) to define the limit of their control over Turkestan.  The result was the nation of Afghanistan being formed in between -- codified in subsequent Anglo-Afghani treaties -- but a dividing of the Pashtun peoples as a result.  We should be wise to remember that Afghanistan (and the former Soviet Union) vehemently protested the Durand frontier line as a legitimate boundary after the Second World War until factional fighting dissolved a unified government.  They argued a frontier does not an international boundary make. 
 
I look forward to more responses to this "fiat" boundary question. 
Ray
-----Original Message-----
From: Emil Boasson [mailto:eb3@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 9:28 PM
To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] oldest purely 'fiat' international boundary?

What about the Great Wall of China, the Wall between Britannia and
Scotia?  The early Chinese Kingdoms had borders, authoritative or
arbitrary.  What about lands described in the Old Testament.  Egypt and
others.?
Emil

David Mark wrote:

>What do you think is the oldest example of a purely "fiat" international
>boundary? A purely fiat boudnary is one which is drawn independently of
>any features on the earth's surface-- a straight line, an arc of a circle,
>etc.  Can anyone give an example of such a boundary from ancient times?
>By international we mean a boundary between two independent kingdoms or
>realms. Negotiated, demarked boudnaries that follow drainage divides or
>rivers don't count. I suspect that the Romans had them, perhaps earlier
>groups, but cannot cite an example. My colleague suggests that they began
>in the 'colonial' period of the last 500-600 years. (The oldest of thise
>would be interesting too.)
>
>David
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