oh ohh
i thought it was mike who found them
anyway he seems well enough invested in them to have caught
the ground floor at least
but look how 1 or both of them is crossed by a little road
so if they exist functionally or rather dysfunctionally today
then the folks on that road will surely know about them
& there is even a town nearby that the road leads to
where people probably read & write
& may have heard about that road with the funny place on it
& mike can read & write enough cyrillic to inquire there too
& we know he is already tuned to the tits on this
so we are loaded for bear here
compared to multipoints these things will be huge
we cant miss now baby
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
<aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> well put maestro
>
> another reason i thought you might have had for saying
> whether they have ever functioned as claves is unknown
> is
> that at the only time they were ever heard of or from
> namely in the mid to late 1970s
> they would not have functioned as claves even if they were
claves
> because they were in sister soviet republics then without
marked
> borders
>
> in other words they wouldnt really have noticeably
> f u n c t i o n e d
> as claves anyway then
>
> or at least not any moreso than liberty & ellis islands or
kentucky
> bend function as claves in any perceptibly outlandish &or
> perceptibly embedded ways today
> except for clavoscopists with the eyes necessary to see them
>
> but given amazing armenian azerbaijanian relations today
> these boogers will of course have been fortified with electrified
> barbed wire &or drawbridges & moats etc
> if they really are so to say functioning as claves today
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "chris schulz"
> <23568@g...> wrote:
> > hi,
> >
> > here is a little map with the tiny enclaves.
> > and here again the link to the discussed site:
> > http://www.home.pages.at/maxifant/Frames/armenien.htm
> > i wrote this phrase "Ob sie je eine reale Rolle gespielt haben
> ist unbekannt", because i myself could not imagine, how such
> tiny pieces of land could really be subject of border-problems,
> especially when you see, how close to the border they are. No
> one of us knew about them and i still remembered the
> message, when the enclaves first were discovered in this
group,
> it was a big surprise (i unfortunately forgot, who was the lucky
> one - jesper, was it your finding, or peter, were you the
> explorer?).
> >
> > regards, chris
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: aletheiak
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:38 AM
> > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: enclaves on stamps
> >
> >
> > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were talking
about
> > enclaves on stamps because the message title still does
say
> > enclaves on stamps
> > even now
> > oops
> >
> > but the claves we were discussing in the text you have
added
> to
> > here are not the ones on the stamps that the thread began
> with
> > & that you probably still have in mind
> >
> > rather these claves are not on any stamps at all that we
know
> of
> > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > so far as we know
> >
> >
> > & i dont believe there is any question of nihilism or any other
> sort
> > of denial here
> >
> > rather we were only following up on what i think chris or
> > someone else had previously & i think very sensibly said of
> > these maybeclaves
> > namely
> > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist unbekannt
> >
> >
> > or in plain barbarian
> >
> > whether they
> > e v e r
> > actually functioned as claves
> > is
> > unknown
> >
> >
> > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any nihilism
there
> >
> >
> >
> > & mike
> > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > dont you worry the turtle might stick his head up from his
> mozart
> > again as he last did in message 13685
> > hahahahaha
> > i can just see him asking us to cancel his subscription
again
> > hahaha
> > certainly one of our funniest moments
> >
> >
> >
> > but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> > so please just tell me
> > quietly & simply if possible
> > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > & exactly which of your writings i am refusing to read
> > so i can at least consider or reconsider what you mean
> >
> >
> > & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
> >
> > but i do think we are all super heroes
> >
> > in fact i am sure of it
> >
> > we are all positively divine
> >
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > Map stamps are usually issued to press border claims - it
> > takes too
> > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp showing an
> exclave
> > for the
> > > reasoning human being to think that what is pictured on
> map
> > stamps
> > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's on new
> stamps
> > (and
> > > these are relatively new) does exist in the mind of the
stamp
> > issuing
> > > party, and you can be certain that in the mind of the issuer,
it
> > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last heard of".
Your
> > logic is
> > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of" the Americas
> prior
> > to
> > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that it was and had
> gone
> > away
> > > at some earlier point in time if it had ever been there.
> Nihilist
> > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus on his
> arrival
> > were
> > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America for quite
> some
> > time.
> > > LN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
Kaufman
> > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > I am not delusional. I am not misrepresenting what
> > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you actually DID
> > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or answer the
> > > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
> > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly cant prove
> > > > the negative rather it is the job of the clavoscopist
> > > > to prove the affirmative" This is tantamount to
> > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent. Guilty until
> > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S delusional...
> > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of 1978, cast
> > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to dress up
> > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > >
> > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what i actually
> > > > > said & did
> > > > >
> > > > > my questioning what you believe & claim exists
> > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has seen any
> > > > > evidence
> > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a century
> > > > > for starters
> > > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer exists
> > > > >
> > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > >
> > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > but only your specific self delusions about me & it
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions that you
> > > > > are even
> > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > >
> > > > > but i just dont share any of this sense with you in
> > > > > common
> > > > >
> > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no confidence in
> > > > > any of
> > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > >
> > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > > >
> > > > > a map
> > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > like all other data
> > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > but are always selective & necessarily partial
> > > > >
> > > > > as well as dated
> > > > >
> > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > >
> > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be the
> > > > > mother of all
> > > > > delusion
> > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense. The maps
> > > > > and
> > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in 1978. The
> > > > > claves
> > > > > > were left as they were. You can't just assume
> > > > > > something goes away because you yourself want it
> > > > > to go
> > > > > > away. What real evidence do you have saying they
> > > > > no
> > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that the other
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because they
> > > > > haven't
> > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the last map
> > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002 (hypothetically),
> > > > > does
> > > > > > that mean we should question whether they've
> > > > > existed
> > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your afterword here
> > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed move about
> > > > > etc
> > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was supposedly
> > > > > true at
> > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > they were last visited &or reported etc
> > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about the
> > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of reporting on
> > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & you have proved these particular crumbs
> > > > > existed
> > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still questionable
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > however unworth questioning just to reduce by 2
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > during which i still do believe they havent been
> > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments & nation
> > > > > states
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times all thru
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize & mention all the
> > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but have
> > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least 26 of
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so i am content to believe them real as of 1976
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher data
> > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist provides it
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & i have just been responding to your claim in
> > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them but i
> > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint could have
> > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just didn't
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have moved (or
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that it wasn't
> > > > > shown
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or said it
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it was or
> > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring clavoscopist to be
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the cartographers knew
> > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or wrote
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific inkling
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt & wouldnt have
> > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just scrawled
a
> > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know in that
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they redraw
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple overprint was
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely have added
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer existed. I
> > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the map for such
> > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > > >
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