well put maestro
another reason i thought you might have had for saying
whether they have ever functioned as claves is unknown
is
that at the only time they were ever heard of or from
namely in the mid to late 1970s
they would not have functioned as claves even if they were claves
because they were in sister soviet republics then without marked
borders
in other words they wouldnt really have noticeably
f u n c t i o n e d
as claves anyway then
or at least not any moreso than liberty & ellis islands or kentucky
bend function as claves in any perceptibly outlandish &or
perceptibly embedded ways today
except for clavoscopists with the eyes necessary to see them
but given amazing armenian azerbaijanian relations today
these boogers will of course have been fortified with electrified
barbed wire &or drawbridges & moats etc
if they really are so to say functioning as claves today
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "chris schulz"
<23568@g...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> here is a little map with the tiny enclaves.
> and here again the link to the discussed site:
> http://www.home.pages.at/maxifant/Frames/armenien.htm
> i wrote this phrase "Ob sie je eine reale Rolle gespielt haben
ist unbekannt", because i myself could not imagine, how such
tiny pieces of land could really be subject of border-problems,
especially when you see, how close to the border they are. No
one of us knew about them and i still remembered the
message, when the enclaves first were discovered in this group,
it was a big surprise (i unfortunately forgot, who was the lucky
one - jesper, was it your finding, or peter, were you the
explorer?).
>
> regards, chris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: aletheiak
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 8:38 AM
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: enclaves on stamps
>
>
> ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were talking about
> enclaves on stamps because the message title still does say
> enclaves on stamps
> even now
> oops
>
> but the claves we were discussing in the text you have added
to
> here are not the ones on the stamps that the thread began
with
> & that you probably still have in mind
>
> rather these claves are not on any stamps at all that we know
of
> but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> so far as we know
>
>
> & i dont believe there is any question of nihilism or any other
sort
> of denial here
>
> rather we were only following up on what i think chris or
> someone else had previously & i think very sensibly said of
> these maybeclaves
> namely
> ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist unbekannt
>
>
> or in plain barbarian
>
> whether they
> e v e r
> actually functioned as claves
> is
> unknown
>
>
> evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any nihilism there
>
>
>
> & mike
> when the banter gets so shrill as this
> dont you worry the turtle might stick his head up from his
mozart
> again as he last did in message 13685
> hahahahaha
> i can just see him asking us to cancel his subscription again
> hahaha
> certainly one of our funniest moments
>
>
>
> but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> so please just tell me
> quietly & simply if possible
> exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> & exactly which of your writings i am refusing to read
> so i can at least consider or reconsider what you mean
>
>
> & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
>
> but i do think we are all super heroes
>
> in fact i am sure of it
>
> we are all positively divine
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > Map stamps are usually issued to press border claims - it
> takes too
> > much deliberate work in creating a stamp showing an
exclave
> for the
> > reasoning human being to think that what is pictured on
map
> stamps
> > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's on new
stamps
> (and
> > these are relatively new) does exist in the mind of the stamp
> issuing
> > party, and you can be certain that in the mind of the issuer, it
> > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last heard of". Your
> logic is
> > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of" the Americas
prior
> to
> > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that it was and had
gone
> away
> > at some earlier point in time if it had ever been there.
Nihilist
> > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus on his
arrival
> were
> > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America for quite
some
> time.
> > LN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kaufman
> > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > I am not delusional. I am not misrepresenting what
> > > you say. You are just ignoring what you actually DID
> > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or answer the
> > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
> > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly cant prove
> > > the negative rather it is the job of the clavoscopist
> > > to prove the affirmative" This is tantamount to
> > > assuming guilty until proven innocent. Guilty until
> > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S delusional...
> > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of 1978, cast
> > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to dress up
> > > like a superhero. :)
> > >
> > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what i actually
> > > > said & did
> > > >
> > > > my questioning what you believe & claim exists
> > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has seen any
> > > > evidence
> > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a century
> > > > for starters
> > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer exists
> > > >
> > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > >
> > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > but only your specific self delusions about me & it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions that you
> > > > are even
> > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > >
> > > > but i just dont share any of this sense with you in
> > > > common
> > > >
> > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no confidence in
> > > > any of
> > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > or about anything here below
> > > >
> > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > >
> > > > a map
> > > > & the representations on it
> > > > like all other data
> > > > are never thorough
> > > > but are always selective & necessarily partial
> > > >
> > > > as well as dated
> > > >
> > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > >
> > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be the
> > > > mother of all
> > > > delusion
> > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense. The maps
> > > > and
> > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in 1978. The
> > > > claves
> > > > > were left as they were. You can't just assume
> > > > > something goes away because you yourself want it
> > > > to go
> > > > > away. What real evidence do you have saying they
> > > > no
> > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that the other
> > > > 4
> > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because they
> > > > haven't
> > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the last map
> > > > > showing them. If that is 2002 (hypothetically),
> > > > does
> > > > > that mean we should question whether they've
> > > > existed
> > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > you have finally hit it in your afterword here
> > > > > > maestro
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed move about
> > > > etc
> > > > > > so we only know for sure what was supposedly
> > > > true at
> > > > > > the time
> > > > > > they were last visited &or reported etc
> > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about the
> > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of reporting on
> > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & you have proved these particular crumbs
> > > > existed
> > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still questionable
> > > > there
> > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > however unworth questioning just to reduce by 2
> > > > the
> > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > during which i still do believe they havent been
> > > > > > heard from
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments & nation
> > > > states
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times all thru
> > > > there
> > > > > > which do in fact now recognize & mention all the
> > > > > > well known
> > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but have
> > > > apparently
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least 26 of
> > > > these
> > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so i am content to believe them real as of 1976
> > > > or
> > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher data
> > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist provides it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & i have just been responding to your claim in
> > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them but i
> > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint could have
> > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just didn't
> > > > know
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have moved (or
> > > > even
> > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that it wasn't
> > > > shown
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or said it
> > > > only
> > > > > > means
> > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it was or
> > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring clavoscopist to be
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > but one cant presume the cartographers knew
> > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or wrote
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific inkling
> > > > about
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if the claves were discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt & wouldnt have
> > > > been
> > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just scrawled a
> > > > big
> > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know in that
> > > > case
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they redraw
> > > > something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple overprint was
> > > > the
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely have added
> > > > a
> > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer existed. I
> > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the map for such
> > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > Shopping.
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________
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