Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: enclaves on stamps
Date: Sep 14, 2004 @ 18:25
Author: Michael Kaufman (Michael Kaufman <mikekaufman79@...>)
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> ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were__________________________________
> talking about
> enclaves on stamps because the message title still
> does say
> enclaves on stamps
> even now
> oops
>
> but the claves we were discussing in the text you
> have added to
> here are not the ones on the stamps that the thread
> began with
> & that you probably still have in mind
>
> rather these claves are not on any stamps at all
> that we know of
> but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> so far as we know
>
>
> & i dont believe there is any question of nihilism
> or any other sort
> of denial here
>
> rather we were only following up on what i think
> chris or
> someone else had previously & i think very sensibly
> said of
> these maybeclaves
> namely
> ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist
> unbekannt
>
>
> or in plain barbarian
>
> whether they
> e v e r
> actually functioned as claves
> is
> unknown
>
>
> evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any
> nihilism there
>
>
>
> & mike
> when the banter gets so shrill as this
> dont you worry the turtle might stick his head up
> from his mozart
> again as he last did in message 13685
> hahahahaha
> i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> subscription again
> hahaha
> certainly one of our funniest moments
>
>
>
> but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> so please just tell me
> quietly & simply if possible
> exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> & exactly which of your writings i am refusing to
> read
> so i can at least consider or reconsider what you
> mean
>
>
> & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
>
> but i do think we are all super heroes
>
> in fact i am sure of it
>
> we are all positively divine
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> Nadybal"
> <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > Map stamps are usually issued to press border
> claims - it
> takes too
> > much deliberate work in creating a stamp showing
> an exclave
> for the
> > reasoning human being to think that what is
> pictured on map
> stamps
> > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's on
> new stamps
> (and
> > these are relatively new) does exist in the mind
> of the stamp
> issuing
> > party, and you can be certain that in the mind of
> the issuer, it
> > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last heard
> of". Your
> logic is
> > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of" the
> Americas prior
> to
> > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that it
> was and had gone
> away
> > at some earlier point in time if it had ever been
> there. Nihilist
> > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus on
> his arrival
> were
> > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America for
> quite some
> time.
> > LN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> Kaufman
> > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > I am not delusional. I am not misrepresenting
> what
> > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> actually DID
> > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or answer
> the
> > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
> > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly cant
> prove
> > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> clavoscopist
> > > to prove the affirmative" This is tantamount to
> > > assuming guilty until proven innocent. Guilty
> until
> > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> delusional...
> > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of 1978,
> cast
> > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to dress
> up
> > > like a superhero. :)
> > >
> > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what i
> actually
> > > > said & did
> > > >
> > > > my questioning what you believe & claim exists
>
> > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has
> seen any
> > > > evidence
> > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a
> century
> > > > for starters
> > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer
> exists
> > > >
> > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > >
> > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > but only your specific self delusions about me
> & it
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions that
> you
> > > > are even
> > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > >
> > > > but i just dont share any of this sense with
> you in
> > > > common
> > > >
> > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> confidence in
> > > > any of
> > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > or about anything here below
> > > >
> > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > >
> > > > a map
> > > > & the representations on it
> > > > like all other data
> > > > are never thorough
> > > > but are always selective & necessarily partial
>
> > > >
> > > > as well as dated
> > > >
> > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > >
> > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be the
> > > > mother of all
> > > > delusion
> > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense. The
> maps
> > > > and
> > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in 1978.
> The
> > > > claves
> > > > > were left as they were. You can't just
> assume
> > > > > something goes away because you yourself
> want it
> > > > to go
> > > > > away. What real evidence do you have saying
> they
> > > > no
> > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that the
> other
> > > > 4
> > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because they
> > > > haven't
> > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the last
> map
> > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> (hypothetically),
> > > > does
> > > > > that mean we should question whether they've
> > > > existed
> > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > you have finally hit it in your afterword
> here
> > > > > > maestro
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed move
> about
> > > > etc
> > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> supposedly
> > > > true at
> > > > > > the time
> > > > > > they were last visited &or reported etc
> > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about the
> > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of
> reporting on
> > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & you have proved these particular crumbs
> > > > existed
> > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> questionable
> > > > there
> > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > however unworth questioning just to reduce
> by 2
> > > > the
> > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > during which i still do believe they
> havent been
> > > > > > heard from
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments &
> nation
> > > > states
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times all
> thru
> > > > there
> > > > > > which do in fact now recognize & mention
> all the
> > > > > > well known
> > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but have
> > > > apparently
> > > > > > never
> > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least 26
> of
> > > > these
> > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so i am content to believe them real as of
> 1976
> > > > or
> > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher data
> > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> provides it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & i have just been responding to your
> claim in
> > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them but
> i
> > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael
> > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint could
> have
> > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just
> didn't
> > > > know
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have
> moved (or
> > > > even
> > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that it
> wasn't
> > > > shown
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or said
> it
> > > > only
> > > > > > means
> > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it was
> or
> > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring clavoscopist
> to be
> > > > so
> > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > but one cant presume the cartographers
> knew
> > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or wrote
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific
> inkling
> > > > about
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if the claves were discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt & wouldnt
> have
> > > > been
> > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just
> scrawled a
> > > > big
> > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know in
> that
> > > > case
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they redraw
> > > > something
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple overprint
> was
> > > > the
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely have
> added
> > > > a
> > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer
> existed. I
> > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the map
> for such
> > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________
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