Mike,
I agree with everything you have written below except your second paragraph,
which I have already refuted in my message 13991, as you have noted.
Further, it is possible that the arms of the colonnade, as built by Bernini, had
steps along their outer margins at some points and not at others due to
irregularity in the natural topography over such a long distance. I note that
the plinths in Fig. 3b sit on about a foot of the wide marble top step, which is
also equal in width to each of the three lower steps. In Fig. 11, however,
there is a narrower marble strip that does not extend beyond the plinths. Where
there are several steps, they would extend beyond the cornice, and where there
are few or none, they would not. This, combined with the statement by the
Italian author (Tullio Aebischer) that they were all paved over as of 1929,
causes him to see the plinth line as the boundary. Even if that point were
granted, the plinth lines jog outward at the propylaea. The alignment of the
travertine strip with the plinth lines of the narrower colonnades is his only
justification for exclusion of the outer propylaea from the Vatican City State.
I think we must classify some of the finer points of the colonnade boundaries as
indefinite. They are likely to remain so until someone commits a felony on the
steps or within an outer propylaeum on one of those rare days when the Vatican
closes St. Peter's Square to the public, thereby pushing Italian police
jurisdiction beyond the poorly defined outer edge of Bernini's Colonnade.
There is another delicious article on the curiosities of the Vatican boundary,
this one by Vitto La Colla, on the same web site. Its two parts begin at
http://tinyurl.com/yvb86 . I have only begun to try to de-Italianize it.
Lowell G. McManus
Leesville, Louisiana, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "m06079" <barbaria_longa@...>
To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 3:10 AM
Subject: [BoundaryPoint] 2 vatican footnotes
> first
> just to tie down a tangential loose end
> some pix i previously overlooked
> clearly showing that the outer steps of the basic colonnade
> if ever there were any
> as distinct from the outer steps of the propylaea
> have indeed been entirely paved over
> right up to the floor level of the colonnade
> in at least 2 different areas
> if not everywhere
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig11.jpg
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig14.jpg
>
> which tends to confirm that the full flight of steps in
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig03b.jpg
> are probably the steps of the propylaea
>
> but having written this
> i also just received message 13991
> for which thanx lowell
> tho i wont be able to see the attachment til tomorrow
> but happily we clearly still have somewhere to go on this
> intriguing if otherwise irrelevant detail
>
>
> & following with translations & elucidations are some more of
> the data & reasoning behind the questionable conclusion by the
> same author that the propylaea are in italy
>
> qui
> piu che in altri punti
> il passaggio de sovranita non e minimamente segnalado.
>
> here in the open portal more than anywhere else the transition of
> sovereignty isnt clearly indicated at all
>
> lo si puo solo dedurre dalla presenza dei tombini con la scritta
> scv
> fig 9
> della citta del vaticano
> anche se sono presenti altri con spqr
> fig 10
>
> but it can only be inferred from the presence of metal plates in
> the pavement inscribed scv for vatican city state
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig09.jpg
> & also others in the area that are inscribed spqr
> an acronym for the ancient roman senate & people
> & thus presumably somehow standing for the vatican too
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig10.jpg
>
> il lastricato di travertino che segna il confine
> largo circa 60cm
> e in corrispondenza del filare dei plinti delle colonne esterne del
> colonnato
> fig 3a
> mentre la planimetria firmata in commissione con evidenzia
> nemmeno i due propilei confermandone lesclusione per quelli
> verso l italia
>
> the 2 foot wide travertine pavement strip that marks the border is
> in alignment with the edge of the plinths of the outer row of
> columns of the basic colonnade
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig03a.jpg
> while the map or plan signed by the commissioners shows no
> evidence of the 2 propylaea
> & thus confirms that they are excluded from the vatican & belong
> to italy
>
> durante la 4a adunanza della commission fu respinta
> senza una precisa motivazione
> la richiesta di momo di posizionare il cordolo di travertino al di la
> delle colonne del colonnato per comprendervi i suddetti propilei
>
> during the 4th meeting of the commission
> a request was made by a certain momo
> presumably a name or acronym explained elsewhere but which
> has eluded this reader
> that the outer edge of the travertine be aligned with that of the
> columns of the colonnade in such a way as to include the
> mentioned propylaea within its outline
> but this request was rejected without any clear or definite
> justification
>
>
> so
> the author
> who is obviously otherwise a first rate researcher & thinker
> having already allowed himself to be misled by the sketchiness
> of the treaty map
> now evidently also mistakenly presumes for some reason that
> itva had to follow the outer edge of either the basic colonnades
> or the propylaea & for some reason couldnt possibly follow both
> alternately
>
> & when he finds that one edge has necessarily been rejected &
> the other accepted for the travertine prolongation
> he again erroneously presumes that the edge which has been
> accepted for that purpose must also necessarily delimit itva
> everywhere along the full length of the outer portico
> regardless of the existence of the propylaea
> & even at the expense of sacrificing them to italy in his mind
>
> & desacralizing the symbolic gates of heaven in the process
>
>
> so in sum
> i would say
> discounting the passetto gate for being an inevitability
> & the audience hall for being a possible misrepresentation
> & the propylaea for being a misunderstanding
> the number of actually divided actual buildings on itva could still
> prove to be as few as zero
>
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