--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
<mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> Regarding the photos at
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig03b.jpg
> and
> http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig03a.jpg ,
> Mike wrote:
>
> > i believe they look toward the same column of the same
> > propylaeum from opposite directions
>
> > but i believe the photo in fig03b was taken while the
> > photographer was standing on the steps of the propylaeum
> > with its north column behind him
> > rather than looking toward the entire propylaeum from the
steps
> > of the narrower portion of the colonnade to its north
>
> > so i believe the steps in the photo are those of the
propylaeum
>
> Please study the attached rare broadside view of the north
colonnade's terminal
> propylaeum (which is cropped out of a 1.6 MB panorama of the
square by Jorgen
> Stadje at
http://www.qedata.se/bilder/panoramor/petersplatsen.jpg ).
okayyy i have just managed to feast my crossed eyes on this
entire fantastic panorama
& you are absolutely right
good searching & thinking
so i must change the above beliefs
which fortunately do not appear to have any bearing on the itva
questions
but i believe your crop attachment will elude me because i am
temporarily without email delivery
a n d
the gmane option does not seem to be working now either
btw can anyone fix that
more below
> You will see that there is no set-back line of columns within the
propylaeum.
> You can see clear through to the arched entrance on the
Mussolini-era building
> in Italy.
> The photo in Fig. 3b shows two round and one square
set-back columns.
> Therefore, these must necessarily be in the narrower
colonnade north of the
> propylaeum. What appears in Figs. 3a and 3b to be only one
round set-out column
> must be both of those of the propylaeum aligned.
ok
i read you loud & clear on all the above
> Furthermore, it appears to me
> in the attached picture that the propylaeum lacks the steps that
are found along
> the inner margin of the narrower colonnade.
i see the colonnade ends have no steps
& just reported some places where the colonnade exteriors have
no steps
so i now believe these may run the full gamut from entirely
present to entirely missing
but i dont yet believe any of the true propylaea will be found
without steps
it is possible your observations & attachment will change this
belief of mine too tho
& the propylaea steps may well touch on itva
if their bases should happen to line up with the column bases
as perfectly as the ones in fig03b do
but in the meantime can you say what if anything you can actually
see there along the base of any of the propylaea
or do you mean you do actually see
when you say it appears to you
that there are no steps there
end insertions
> Apart from the exceptions detailed above, I find the remainder
of Mike's Vatican
> credo credible.
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> also
> as you indicate below
> the steps leading to the narrower portion may even have been
> paved over
> tho
> as mentioned previously
> i am not at all sure of this detail
> nor of its significance with regard to itva
>
> > and they show
> > that the outer edge of the travertine strip aligns with the outer
> edges of the
> > columnar plinths, ignoring the projection of the propylaeum.
> The author
> > believes that the outer edge of the plinths was intended by
the
> treaty, because
> > the external steps were paved over in contemporary photos.
> >
> > In his words:
> >
> > Il terzo comma definisce territorio vaticano la zona
all'interno
> del bordo
> > esterno dei bracci del Colonnato Berniniano e loro
> prolungamento. Si parla di
> > linee esterne non specificando bene cosa siano. L'unico
> modo per capirne il
> > significato è quello di conoscere la situazione del Colonnato
a
> quell'epoca: il
> > livello della strada arrivava, in base a foto dell'epoca, alla
base
> del plinto
> > delle colonne. Ciò giustifica la linea continua della pianta
> dell'Allegato I.
> >
> > Il lastricato di travertino che segna il confine, largo circa
0.60
> m, è in
> > corrispondenza del filare dei plinti delle colonne esterne del
> Colonnato, mentre
> > la planimetria firmata in Commissione non evidenzia
> nemmeno i due propilei
> > confermandone l'esclusione per quelli verso l'Italia.
>
> this is why i believe the author has taken at least this detail of
the
> lateran map too literally
>
> of course this map doesnt show the propylaea
>
> for it isnt detailed enough to show them nor any of the 8 similar
> projections from the basic colonnades either
> nor does it show very much other fine detail anywhere else on
> the itva border that it so crudely yet still very effectively indicates
>
> & it is therefore
> as i believe
> only a delimitation sketch rather than a precise delineation
map
>
> to understand the intended & i believe actual legal delineation
> i believe it is necessary to return again to the essence of the
deal
> which was to at least keep all the structures wholly holy
>
> & then to let whatever other lines are necessary connect these
>
>
> however i am looking forward to learning the new possible
> exception to this principle
> as just suggested by mats
>
> > Correndo la linea di confine lungo il lato esterno del plinto
> delle colonne
> > del filare esterno, vengono a trovarsi in territorio italiano le
> colonne dei
> > propilei del Colonnato rivolte verso Via della Conciliazione, il
> cornicione e
> > gli scalini esterni.
> >
> > In this interpretation, the author applies the treaty's
> specification of "the
> > external edge of the arms of the Bernini Colonnade and their
> prolongation" very
> > literally to the columns themselves, leaving the steps, the
> cornice, and the
> > propylaea in Italy. On the other hand, who is to say that the
> term "colonnade"
> > does not refer to the entire architectural structure, with all of
its
> > intricacies?
>
> right
> & i believe there is actually good reason to agree with the
author
> about where the travertine sector of itva terminates
> but also good reason to disagree with him about exactly which
> feature or features the architectural sector of itva follows
>
> >The fact that the steps were paved over as of 1929 does not
> remove
> > them from the structure if Gianlorenzo Bernini put them there
in
> the 17th
> > century. Likewise, the fact that the travertine strip (assuming
> that Bernini
> > put it there too) aligns with the plinths and not with the steps,
> the cornice,
> > or the propylaea proves nothing about the location of the
> boundary about these
> > other features. After all, the talented Mr. Bernini had no idea
> that he was
> > designing a future international boundary. If he had, he
might
> have made it
> > smoother.
>
> hahaha
> right
> with such exquisite smoothness
> he only believed he was delimiting the sacred from the profane
>
> > Lowell G. McManus
> > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
>
>
>
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