In
http://www.salomonia.com/Bundesrecht/verlauf_gemeinsame_staatsgrenzeG/verlauf_gemeinsame_staatsgrenze-text.htm
(the law that puts the 1984 treaty into force), there is talk of
Grundstuecken (parcels of land), that have to be taken out of the
German land register, because they are situated within the territory
of joint sovereignty as defined in the treaty (art. 3 (1) 2 and 3 (1)
3). This is the first time I see some proof of dry pieces of this
condominium in print (although I think I can see some tiny islands on
the 1:20k map of Vianden and surroundings that fall in between the
boundaries along the river banks as well). Unless "Grundstuecken" is
German legalese for parcels of anything, including water. Can somebody
enlighten me on that? And can someone come up with the text of this
treaty? So far, I've been unable to find it.
Peter S.
--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> profuse thanxxx peter
>
> this all feels great
>
> & i agree about monuments 19 & 47
> for now i can envision them marking dedelulu condo tripoints on the
left
> bank of the river & dam lake respectively
> if i understand you correctly
> & thus i would also expect them to have condo terminus mates on the
> respective right banks more or less directly opposite
> but the mates will in that case just be marking points on the delulu
line
> rather than tripoints
>
> in other words no trilines around vianden as at befrlu & bedelu
>
>
> also
> while looking forward to your further comments on bedelu
>
> considering the narrowness of the river condo there
> & assuming it even persists that far upriver
> which i do assume now based on your new info
> & pending any more details
> & considering also the shortness & interruptedness of the riverine
sectors
> of the bede boundary continuing up the ours from bedelu
> i would venture to guess we will not find any bede river condos
anywhere
> but only a single linear bede boundary from bedelu to bedenl
> & would douse the hope i once had of a bicondo quadripoint at
bedelu
>
> also
> just to fully embrace the benelux try again
> considering the shortness & interruptedness of the riverine sectors
of the
> denl boundary
> i would also venture to guess a single linear boundary again in that
case
> except just possibly for a condo on the rhine sector
>
>
> but beyond that
> since you bring word now of a more pervasive river condo culture
than might
> be indicated by just the 2 or 4 positive finds you have made along
the esfr
> & delu frontiers
> especially with the account of that wonderful sanctuary ferry
custom
> it seems worth staying alert now to the possibility of finding other
> surviving river condos on other european boundaries than just these
>
> m
>
>
> ps
> it seems almost a necessity that river condos keep moving with a
changing
> river
> but a luxury & a rarity when simple riverine boundary lines do
>
> i think vianden is odder for the boundary detour than the condo
expansion
>
>
> also
> the 1263 breakthru by peter you mentioned was building since message
293
> tho the companion suggestion in that message re atchde has
probably been
> busted by gideon
> so this particular search you have so beautifully advanced again now
is a
> terrific survivor
>
>
> >
> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> >> still working in the dark for lack of an 1815 treaty of vienna
text
> >> & still clueless also about any later international agreements
that
> >could
> >> have affected the river condo or condos originally created then
> >>
> >> but a lucky catch at
> >> <http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
> >>http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html
> >> makes the delu river condo on the moselle at schengen aka defrlu
> >> which several members have already pointed out with pix & maps
> >> seem likely to continue northward
> >> first all the way down the moselle to wasserbillig
> >> & from there all the way up the tributary river sauer to
wallendorf
> >> & finally all the way up its tributary river the our to bedelu
> >> except in this last case for a very short stretch around vianden
> >where the
> >> delu boundary leaves the river our
> >>
> >> this single detour breaks the possible river condo territory into
> >two
> >> separate pieces
> >> & may produce a pair of riparian condo tripoints in the process
> >> one just southeast & the other just north of vianden
> >
> >
> >It looks like you're right. I have a 1:20k map here of the Vianden
> >area, and the points where the border leaves the river Our are at
> >boundary marker 47 (north of Vianden) and boundary marker 19 (south
of
> >Vianden). These boundary markers are likely to be pairs, one on
each
> >bank. Moreover, because of the large width of the river north of
> >Vianden (it is the Bassin Inferieur lake formed by the river dam at
> >Vianden), the boundaries are clearly depicted as following both
banks,
> >thus leaving the condominium in the middle. I find it strange
> >(although understandable) that the border obviously changed,
because
> >the lake certainly wasn't there in 1815, and the borders are
following
> >the lake shore lines. This is unlike the US example (I believe it
was
> >in Tennessee) mentioned in this group a couple of days ago.
Normally,
> >a boundary stays the same, even if a river changes its course,
unless
> >a new boundary is negotiated. Perhaps that's what has been
happening
> >in Vianden.
> >
> >The border situation is all the more obvious, since south of bdy
> >marker 47 a municipal sectional border continues southwards through
> >the middle of the lake, and across the dam.
> >
> >I found another nice piece of evidence of the special status of the
> >delu boundary rivers. According to
> ><http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
> >http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html , on the
> >river ferries a right of asylum once existed. When someone that was
> >persecuted could reach a ferryboat, he could stay there for six
weeks
> >and three days, without fear of being arrested. If he succeeded,
after
> >this time, to make three steps on dry ground, the asylum was
renewed
> >for six weeks.
> >When a persecuted person wanted to go to the other side, the
ferryman
> >would bring him over, return, and only then take the persecutors on
> >board!
> >It looks like this is some old law, preceding the condominium of
1815.
> >Possibly the condominium solution even so much as succeded the old,
> >already existing legal practises at the border rivers.
> >
> >Peter S.
> >
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