Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: search for germany benelux river condos advances
Date: Apr 19, 2001 @ 16:09
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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>
>In
><http://www.salomonia.com/Bundesrecht/verlauf_gemeinsame_staatsgrenzeG/verlauf_
>gemeinsame_staatsgrenze-text.htm>
>http://www.salomonia.com/Bundesrecht/verlauf_gemeinsame_staatsgrenzeG/verlauf_ge
>meinsame_staatsgrenze-text.htm
>(the law that puts the 1984 treaty into force), there is talk of
>Grundstuecken (parcels of land), that have to be taken out of the
>German land register, because they are situated within the territory
>of joint sovereignty as defined in the treaty (art. 3 (1) 2 and 3 (1)
>3). This is the first time I see some proof of dry pieces of this
>condominium in print (although I think I can see some tiny islands on
>the 1:20k map of Vianden and surroundings that fall in between the
>boundaries along the river banks as well). Unless "Grundstuecken" is
>German legalese for parcels of anything, including water. Can somebody
>enlighten me on that? And can someone come up with the text of this
>treaty? So far, I've been unable to find it.
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> profuse thanxxx peter
>>
>> this all feels great
>>
>> & i agree about monuments 19 & 47
>> for now i can envision them marking dedelulu condo tripoints on the
>left
>> bank of the river & dam lake respectively
>> if i understand you correctly
>> & thus i would also expect them to have condo terminus mates on the
>> respective right banks more or less directly opposite
>> but the mates will in that case just be marking points on the delulu
>line
>> rather than tripoints
>>
>> in other words no trilines around vianden as at befrlu & bedelu
>>
>>
>> also
>> while looking forward to your further comments on bedelu
>>
>> considering the narrowness of the river condo there
>> & assuming it even persists that far upriver
>> which i do assume now based on your new info
>> & pending any more details
>> & considering also the shortness & interruptedness of the riverine
>sectors
>> of the bede boundary continuing up the ours from bedelu
>> i would venture to guess we will not find any bede river condos
>anywhere
>> but only a single linear bede boundary from bedelu to bedenl
>> & would douse the hope i once had of a bicondo quadripoint at
>bedelu
>>
>> also
>> just to fully embrace the benelux try again
>> considering the shortness & interruptedness of the riverine sectors
>of the
>> denl boundary
>> i would also venture to guess a single linear boundary again in that
>case
>> except just possibly for a condo on the rhine sector
>>
>>
>> but beyond that
>> since you bring word now of a more pervasive river condo culture
>than might
>> be indicated by just the 2 or 4 positive finds you have made along
>the esfr
>> & delu frontiers
>> especially with the account of that wonderful sanctuary ferry
>custom
>> it seems worth staying alert now to the possibility of finding other
>> surviving river condos on other european boundaries than just these
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>> ps
>> it seems almost a necessity that river condos keep moving with a
>changing
>> river
>> but a luxury & a rarity when simple riverine boundary lines do
>>
>> i think vianden is odder for the boundary detour than the condo
>expansion
>>
>>
>> also
>> the 1263 breakthru by peter you mentioned was building since message
>293
>> tho the companion suggestion in that message re atchde has
>probably been
>> busted by gideon
>> so this particular search you have so beautifully advanced again now
>is a
>> terrific survivor
>>
>>
>> >
>> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
>> >> still working in the dark for lack of an 1815 treaty of vienna
>text
>> >> & still clueless also about any later international agreements
>that
>> >could
>> >> have affected the river condo or condos originally created then
>> >>
>> >> but a lucky catch at
>> >> <<http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
>>http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
>> >><http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
>>http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html
>> >> makes the delu river condo on the moselle at schengen aka defrlu
>> >> which several members have already pointed out with pix & maps
>> >> seem likely to continue northward
>> >> first all the way down the moselle to wasserbillig
>> >> & from there all the way up the tributary river sauer to
>wallendorf
>> >> & finally all the way up its tributary river the our to bedelu
>> >> except in this last case for a very short stretch around vianden
>> >where the
>> >> delu boundary leaves the river our
>> >>
>> >> this single detour breaks the possible river condo territory into
>> >two
>> >> separate pieces
>> >> & may produce a pair of riparian condo tripoints in the process
>> >> one just southeast & the other just north of vianden
>> >
>> >
>> >It looks like you're right. I have a 1:20k map here of the Vianden
>> >area, and the points where the border leaves the river Our are at
>> >boundary marker 47 (north of Vianden) and boundary marker 19 (south
>of
>> >Vianden). These boundary markers are likely to be pairs, one on
>each
>> >bank. Moreover, because of the large width of the river north of
>> >Vianden (it is the Bassin Inferieur lake formed by the river dam at
>> >Vianden), the boundaries are clearly depicted as following both
>banks,
>> >thus leaving the condominium in the middle. I find it strange
>> >(although understandable) that the border obviously changed,
>because
>> >the lake certainly wasn't there in 1815, and the borders are
>following
>> >the lake shore lines. This is unlike the US example (I believe it
>was
>> >in Tennessee) mentioned in this group a couple of days ago.
>Normally,
>> >a boundary stays the same, even if a river changes its course,
>unless
>> >a new boundary is negotiated. Perhaps that's what has been
>happening
>> >in Vianden.
>> >
>> >The border situation is all the more obvious, since south of bdy
>> >marker 47 a municipal sectional border continues southwards through
>> >the middle of the lake, and across the dam.
>> >
>> >I found another nice piece of evidence of the special status of the
>> >delu boundary rivers. According to
>> ><<http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
>>http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
>> ><http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
>>http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html , on the
>> >river ferries a right of asylum once existed. When someone that was
>> >persecuted could reach a ferryboat, he could stay there for six
>weeks
>> >and three days, without fear of being arrested. If he succeeded,
>after
>> >this time, to make three steps on dry ground, the asylum was
>renewed
>> >for six weeks.
>> >When a persecuted person wanted to go to the other side, the
>ferryman
>> >would bring him over, return, and only then take the persecutors on
>> >board!
>> >It looks like this is some old law, preceding the condominium of
>1815.
>> >Possibly the condominium solution even so much as succeded the old,
>> >already existing legal practises at the border rivers.
>> >
>> >Peter S.
>> >
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