Subject: Re: Green Island / Ile Verte (St.Pierre-Miquelon NFLD) cafr
Date: Jul 12, 2006 @ 16:13
Author: XML ("XML" <x.maillard@...>)
Prev Post in Topic Next [All Posts]
Prev Post in Time Next
> > 2. It does exist (yet theorical since it is locatedThat's correct. You are right, there is no boundary 'shore' at all,
> > on a rock shore...) a wet-dry boundary, the wet side
> > being French, the dry side being Canadian, on both
> > Western and Southwestern extremities of L'Enfant
> > Perdu de l'Ile Verte and the Western island of Little
> > Green Island Group.
> here is one place where we may differ for i dont see that
> the boundary actually follows any shoreline but rather
> consists only of geodesic line segments that turn upon
> these 2 specific shoreline extremity points you mention
> so it may not be technically correct to say that theYes, I agree with what you point out: according to the 1972
> boundary line itself has a wet side & a dry side
> but only that these 2 points on the boundary line have
> a wet side & a dry side
> now having said that thoI am not sure about this, if I consider Romain's chart on
> i also believe that the 3 segments of maritime
> boundary that are defined by your 2 special wet&dry
> points may very well cross dry land adjacent to thos
> points especially at low tide
> but probably even at high tide a tiny bit tooCHS chart 4490 would certainly give us a clue regarding this
> in between & touching these 2 special points
> i believe the nationality of the rocks & the islandsSo we have two possibilities, is that right?
> alike are determined by which side of the maritime
> boundary they happen to fall on
> but since it is only a sea boundary i am not sure itRight. That's still the question: shouldn't a sea boundary only
> would divide or allocate those rocks so much as ignore
> them
> > 6. Canadian Hydrograhic Service chart 405 seems toChimerical quest, yes.
> > me clearer, but I
> > did not succeed in finding that chart. When I was in
> > New Brunswick,
> > I tried to find it at Fredericton but they did not
> > have it in
> > libraries. Maybe in NFLD or somewhere in Ontario...
>
> true & probably true & so by all means please keep
> trying to go for it
> > 7. I have seen, in Canada, another map, about
> > 1:25000 scale and a
> > Canadian-made chart, giving the boundary line.
> > However, this map was
> > not as efficient as the French IGN 1:25000 chart, as
> > the French
> > chart shows all the rocks (although not showing the
> > boundary line)
> > while this Canadian map show the line but only two
> > [!] islands for
> > Little Green Island group. So OK, all the islands
> > were on the
> > Canadian side.... but with only 2 islets this can
> > not be considered
> > as accurate, can it?
>
> no & it sounds like you will need both maps if you
> want to know the full allocational inventory
> but again i have to wonder why
> unless you are looking for divided rocks
> which i believe is a chimerical quest in any case
> as i indicated above
> the treaty definitely places this entire islandJust about this: the 1972 agreement does not say exactly this. It
> or all but half of a single point of it
> in canada
> > 8. It is right that a "Sea boundary" is not a landOK, that is clear.
> > border, so... we
> > could consider that only the waters are divided, not
> > indeed the
> > land. This would let one rock be French, or
> > Canadian,
>
> this far i think you have it exactly right
> but i dont think a purely sea boundary can divide land
> even if it happens to cross it
>
> thats what i mean by a metaboundary
> or divided byYes, but it is a boundary sea line:
> > both of them, but the waters around this island part
> > being under
> > another rule than the island part itself.
>
> well even in the case of your 2 special islands
> the boundary is still a geodesic line that nicks the
> shoreline at a point but is not the shoreline itself
> for any distance
> > I am not sure I am clear enough. In anycase, I do not supposeOK.
> > this suggestion be reasonable, since it would be really silly
> > and I do not think the boundary is such silly in the reality.
>
> you are great & i am reading you loud & clear except
> in the one place above where i wondered about your
> motivation
>
> i do rather think boundaries are silly tho & highly
> entertaining too but most entertaining of all when they
> involve multipointing or at least the kind of trypointing
> you are endeavoring to do here
>
> > 9. According to the 1972-Agreement, all the rock
> > would be Canadian
> > (exept the shore on the two mentionned-islets),
>
> even the shore & offshore waters too
> up to the geodesic sea boundary lineI agree.
> i believe
> for remember
> theoretically even if not in physical fact
> this line only touches 1 extreme point of these
> islands
> again i would say a french point but not really anyI agree.
> french shore
> > 10. In the previous Traities (Utrecht, Versailles,I have heard that one treaty said something about the waters being
> > Vienna, Paris,
> > and London convention of 1904), I have never read
> > that Green Island
> > (and the island group) was divided between French
> > and Britain, as
> > well as I have never read that these islands were
> > given to one
> > country or the other.
> right i am with you all the way from here to the end
> disagreement & confusion did reign
> we know thatSorry for having been quite long for only small turning points,
>
> but all this was finally settled only by this latest
> sea border treaty
> in 1972
>
> > All these agreements between
> > France and
> > Britain only tell us about "les îles de
> > Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon"
> > (St.Pierre-&-Miquelon islands), and this meant not
> > only St.Pierre
> > island and Miquelon island, but also Langlade island
> > (Petite
> > Miquelon, now part of Miquelon but at that time two
> > separate
> > islands) + other smaller islands (which were not
> > mentioned in the
> > agreement) like île aux Marins (île aux chiens), île
> > aux Pigeons,
> > île aux Vainqueurs, Grand Colombier, and other
> > rocks.
> > It can be considered Green Island and Little Green
> > Island + the
> > rocks in that area (Little Green Island group) were
> > included in the
> > island surrounding SPM, and so stay French, as well
> > as it can not be
> > considered.
> >
> > There were not details, in the treaties...
> >
> > 11. However, French SPM inhabitants have always
> > believed and for
> > some still believe (although we here know it is not
> > the case since
> > 1972) that Green Island +was divided+ between France
> > and Britain,
> > later Canada, the 1908-lighthouse being on the
> > Canadian side.
> >
> > In addition, the 1907 French channel between SPM and
> > NFLD (of which
> > I have a chart) divided Green Island in two parts,
> > one being French,
> > the other British.
> >
> > For these reasons, we can, I assume, considere that
> > +it has existed+
> > a real land border (although not marked with
> > boundary stones in
> > situ) between France and UK, and later between
> > France and Canada, on
> > Green Island, until 1972. I assume, since 1972,
> > Green Island is
> > Canadian in its whole part.
> >
> > 12. It is said that, in 1908, where the NFLD
> > lighthouse was built on
> > Green Island, the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs
> > in Paris seemed
> > to accept - yet not officially) that Green Island
> > was included in
> > the lands which were given to and later kept by
> > Britain along with
> > Newfoundland and New France.
> >
> > "La question fut soumise au ministre des Colonies et
> > à celui des
> > Affaires Etrangères français qui, sans se prononcer
> > formellement à
> > ce sujet, semblèrent admettre que l'Ile Verte et les
> > petits ilots
> > voisins étaient compris parmi les îles adjacentes à
> > Terre-Neuve,
> > cédées définitivement par la France à l'Angleterre
> > aux termes de
> > l'article 13 du traité d'Utrecth en 1713 et du
> > Traité du 3 septembre
> > 1783 et que, par suite, cette puissance était
> > investie du droit de
> > souveraineté à son égard malgré l'absence de toutes
> > stipulations
> > expresses à ce sujet. Le Gouvernement français ne
> > s'opposa donc pas
> > à la construction de la sirène à brume puisqu'il
> > n'était pas dans
> > les intentions des autorités terre-neuviennes de
> > modifier les droits
> > de pêche dans ces parages". I disagree with this.
> > Perhaps the French
> > Government had, at that time, seemed, to consider
> > Green Island area
> > was not French, but it is not based on official
> > grounds. No treaty
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
> booo
> not truncated by me
>
> the rest is still here tho
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/19676
> wonderful dissertation
>
> & let me know if we have missed anything of
> significance