Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Green Island / Ile Verte (St.Pierre-Miquelon NFLD) cafr
Date: Jul 11, 2006 @ 22:46
Author: aletheia kallos (aletheia kallos <aletheiak@...>)
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> Hi everybody,here is one place where we may differ
>
> Regarding the CAFR SPM/NFLD boundary, here is my
> point of view:
>
> 1. OK, It does exist a wet boundary.
>
> 2. It does exist (yet theorical since it is located
> on a rock
> shore...) a wet-dry boundary, the wet side being
> French, the dry
> side being Canadian, on both Western and
> Southwestern extremities of
> L'Enfant Perdu de l'Ile Verte and the Western island
> of Little Green
> Island Group.
> 3. Does "island" in the 1972-official Agreementi agree with lowells recitation in general
> ("île", in the
> official French version of that Agreement) deal with
> any rock, or
> only with real island? I mean, could we consider
> that the rocks in
> the area of Little Green Island are real islands
> themselves, or only
> rocks?
> 4. I have requested the French national authoritiesgreat
> in SPM, asking
> them to confirm to me whether or not they consider
> some slands/rocks
> to be under French sovereignty.
>5.http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/ls57.ht
> m DMAHC 14340 chart is not clear enough to statetrue & probably true & so by all means please keep
> where does the
> boundary pass through, in that area.
>
> 6. Canadian Hydrograhic Service chart 405 seems to
> me clearer, but I
> did not succeed in finding that chart. When I was in
> New Brunswick,
> I tried to find it at Fredericton but they did not
> have it in
> libraries. Maybe in NFLD or somewhere in Ontario...
> 7. I have seen, in Canada, another map, aboutno & it sounds like you will need both maps if you
> 1:25000 scale and a
> Canadian-made chart, giving the boundary line.
> However, this map was
> not as efficient as the French IGN 1:25000 chart, as
> the French
> chart shows all the rocks (although not showing the
> boundary line)
> while this Canadian map show the line but only two
> [!] islands for
> Little Green Island group. So OK, all the islands
> were on the
> Canadian side.... but with only 2 islets this can
> not be considered
> as accurate, can it?
> In addition to this, I guess Canadian maps (officiali dont know about this
> or not) would
> place Green Island area in Canada, while French maps
> would place it
> in France or for half part in France... Perhaps
> international maps,
> foreign charts, would be more realistic...
> 8. It is right that a "Sea boundary" is not a landthis far i think you have it exactly right
> border, so... we
> could consider that only the waters are divided, not
> indeed the
> land. This would let one rock be French, or
> Canadian,
> both of them, but the waters around this island partwell even in the case of your 2 special islands
> being under
> another rule than the island part itself.
> I am notyou are great & i am reading you loud & clear except
> sure I am clear
> enough. In anycase, I do not suppose this suggestion
> be reasonable,
> since it would be really silly and I do not think
> the boundary is
> such silly in the reality.
> 9. According to the 1972-Agreement, all the rockeven the shore & offshore waters too
> would be Canadian
> (exept the shore on the two mentionned-islets),
> ifagain i would say a french point but not really any
> we consider that
> being inside the Canadian waters, they must be under
> the same
> sovereignty - but once again, I agree a sea boundary
> can be
> different than a land boundary, e.g. with Enfant
> perdu de l'Ile
> Verte which is Canadian but has, let's say, a kind
> of French
> shore... This Enfant perdu de l'Ile Verte could have
> been divided in
> two parts, leaving one shore being French (Western
> part) and the
> other Canadian (Eastern part)...
> 10. In the previous Traities (Utrecht, Versailles,right i am with you all the way from here to the end
> Vienna, Paris,
> and London convention of 1904), I have never read
> that Green Island
> (and the island group) was divided between French
> and Britain, as
> well as I have never read that these islands were
> given to one
> country or the other.
> All these agreements between=== message truncated ===
> France and
> Britain only tell us about "les îles de
> Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon"
> (St.Pierre-&-Miquelon islands), and this meant not
> only St.Pierre
> island and Miquelon island, but also Langlade island
> (Petite
> Miquelon, now part of Miquelon but at that time two
> separate
> islands) + other smaller islands (which were not
> mentioned in the
> agreement) like île aux Marins (île aux chiens), île
> aux Pigeons,
> île aux Vainqueurs, Grand Colombier, and other
> rocks.
> It can be considered Green Island and Little Green
> Island + the
> rocks in that area (Little Green Island group) were
> included in the
> island surrounding SPM, and so stay French, as well
> as it can not be
> considered.
>
> There were not details, in the treaties...
>
> 11. However, French SPM inhabitants have always
> believed and for
> some still believe (although we here know it is not
> the case since
> 1972) that Green Island +was divided+ between France
> and Britain,
> later Canada, the 1908-lighthouse being on the
> Canadian side.
>
> In addition, the 1907 French channel between SPM and
> NFLD (of which
> I have a chart) divided Green Island in two parts,
> one being French,
> the other British.
>
> For these reasons, we can, I assume, considere that
> +it has existed+
> a real land border (although not marked with
> boundary stones in
> situ) between France and UK, and later between
> France and Canada, on
> Green Island, until 1972. I assume, since 1972,
> Green Island is
> Canadian in its whole part.
>
> 12. It is said that, in 1908, where the NFLD
> lighthouse was built on
> Green Island, the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs
> in Paris seemed
> to accept - yet not officially) that Green Island
> was included in
> the lands which were given to and later kept by
> Britain along with
> Newfoundland and New France.
>
> "La question fut soumise au ministre des Colonies et
> à celui des
> Affaires Etrangères français qui, sans se prononcer
> formellement à
> ce sujet, semblèrent admettre que l'Ile Verte et les
> petits ilots
> voisins étaient compris parmi les îles adjacentes à
> Terre-Neuve,
> cédées définitivement par la France à l'Angleterre
> aux termes de
> l'article 13 du traité d'Utrecth en 1713 et du
> Traité du 3 septembre
> 1783 et que, par suite, cette puissance était
> investie du droit de
> souveraineté à son égard malgré l'absence de toutes
> stipulations
> expresses à ce sujet. Le Gouvernement français ne
> s'opposa donc pas
> à la construction de la sirène à brume puisqu'il
> n'était pas dans
> les intentions des autorités terre-neuviennes de
> modifier les droits
> de pêche dans ces parages". I disagree with this.
> Perhaps the French
> Government had, at that time, seemed, to consider
> Green Island area
> was not French, but it is not based on official
> grounds. No treaty
>