If the IBS paper did not confuse us from the start, we would all have been convinced BGGRTR was the marker we saw on the island.

But after seeing the TR maps posted on www.geocities.com/jesniel on location - especially the first one – we were convinced it was the tp. Also map # 4 looks very new.

The maps are very confusing to look at, and since we were unable to get copies, but were allowed to photograph them, I decided to do that, and verify the evidence later at home and hold it against the IBS paper.

We did not walk the vista, probably because our hosts were Turkish.

But getting back to map #4. Old information stored in my memory has just surfaced. Before going to the island we were having tea at border HQ in Kapikule just north of the crossing few meters from BGTR. I asked to where bm 319 was (hoping for a photo), but was shown the unnumbered stone south of the road. http://www.nicolette.dk/borderbase/border.php?c1=21&c2=141 shows 1) this unnumbered stone, 2) the border crossing where the car has just entered BG , 3) looking N along BGTR at the same place. Asking the Turkish (evening after tp visit) why the stone was unnumbered the told us that this map and stone was unratified by BG. So if the map is not final, the missing marker 320Biz may not be final too. But don’t you agree that the arrow on marker 1 at this map indicate a dry tp?

We still have the contacts to the TRs including the map “owner”, and we should ask them. I have also long ago why before GSEEBE asked GR about documentation on their tps. But the Greeks are so secretive about this stuff, so they asked for a reason they should let me have it. I still haven’t thought of a reason that would be worth gold.

The next two weeks I will on the road for CHFRITMCSM, so I will wait to write these contacts till then.

The last GR message on the tripoint was from the site of the GR minister of Macedonia , and so it should be pretty reliable information. Normally I don’t take news stories as 100% reliable information, because reporters often get things wrong.

Jesper

Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com ] På vegne af aletheiak
Sendt: 7. oktober 2005 16:37
Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [BoundaryPoint] these could be the most telling & interesting 2 points

--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com , " Jesper Nielsen " <jesniel@i...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, some things are odd.
>
>
>
> Pro:
>
> Our monument is definitively a tripoint monument since it has the three
> flags, but could still be symbolic
>
> The three flags are painted on trees on each side of countries territories
> (http://www.vasa.abo.fi/users/rpalmber/BordersBGT.htm). Would BG allow
> painting of GR flag on BG tree?
>
> GR & TR are not the best play mates, and so I am sure TR would not approve
> GR flag if only BGTR marker
>
> Our TR hosts did not want to be photographed on GR side
>
>
>
> Cons:
>
> If No1 is the tp, why does BG put 320? (local ignorance?), see
> http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/tp_mon.jpg, the photo is taken from GR by
> the way (if true tp). The "320 BG" inscription was gone in May 2005.
>
> Monument does not look like an official marker
>
> Like on satellite photo, there is clear vista along what should be BGGR
> (http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/bggrtr.jpg)

yes
the vista & all the maps are extremely persuasive

but did you perhaps follow this vista to its western or upstream end

for if true bggrtr is truly on the island
then we might expect to find a bggr marker very near that spot
& or across the river from there on the greek side
where a prolongation of the vista line would strike it

& one more insert below

> When copying the maps showing "Iceland Kavak" on
> http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/, the TR officials tried to tell us somehow
> they were no good. I got the impression they meant not to scale, or
> non-official maps or something like that
>
> We were shown the spot where GRTR enters the river.

this spot where the 320 line continues south from kavak island feels especially hot
& no matter for now whether it is truly grtr as you say or actually bgtr entering there
for thats what we need to find out

so can you say any more about this spot

& especially about what you saw facing south from here

end inserts

> The photographed marker appeared to be 320CT. Then what happened to 320 Biz
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com ] På
> vegne af aletheiak
> Sendt: 4. oktober 2005 00:57
> Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: Re: SV: SV: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented
>
>
>
> delicious
> many thanxxx
> & they give me a bright new idea
> for regardless of the various map dates
> they do all together reiterate & underscore the already well known fact
> of the extreme shiftiness of all these islands
>
> which could singlehandedly explain how the tripoint got out of the river &
> onto dry land
>
> that is
> by pure avulsion
>
> & with no paperwork needed whatsoever
>
> except that
> even in such a case
> bgtr & grtr should still run in a continuous line downstream
> following the middle of the former main channel in both cases
> which was
> according to their 1919 & 1923 treaties respectively
> about 197 feet south of marker 1 on the south side of kavak group island a
> which is the smaller island south of kavak proper
> as some of your maps still rightly show
>
> indeed there is still precisely that turnpoint of bgtr showing there on
> several of them
> from off of the 320 monument line & into the mainstream
> which is exactly where the treaties & the ibs writeups lead one to expect
> the tripoint to be
>
> so i am not quite ready to cry eureka yet
> but we may be stumbling onto something essential not previously understood
> here
>
> if only we can somehow explain away this one remaining messy detail
> namely
> that the trifinium shown on all your maps is still not only a bit too far
> north
> but also at right angles to the orientation the treaties say it should have
> per ibs numbers 41 aka grtr & 56 aka bggr
>
> it just led me to notice however that there is a small comment in ibs number
> 49
> aka bgtr
> hinting that the tripoint could have been moved bilaterally by the grtr
> demarcation
> commission of 1926
>
> so any records that can be found of that party
> may be the next if not the only remaining hope for further investigation &
> elucidation
>
> heavy breathing & nearly celebration here
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com , " Jesper Nielsen " <jesniel@i...> wrote:
> > http://www.geocities.com/jesniel/
> >
> >
> >
> > Maps are not dated, which could have been nice.
> >
> >
> >
> > Last photo show a 320 which we passed on the causeway to Kavak.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesper
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com ]
> På
> > vegne af aletheiak
> > Sendt: 3. oktober 2005 16:14
> > Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Emne: Re: SV: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented
> >
> >
> >
> > yes please would love to eat em
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com , jesniel@i... wrote:
> > > I have various TR treaty maps of the tp that I can scan.
> > > >-- Original Message --
> > > >To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > >From: "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...>
> > > >Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:04:53 -0000
> > > >Subject: Re: SV: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented
> > > >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ><html><body>
> > >
> > >
> > > <tt>
> > > well ok but cshuro is marked by a ziggurat topped by an obeliskoid 
> > > whereas the new bggrtr monument 
> > > thanx to the partial pic youve found 
> > > is still looking almost perfectly pyramidal 
> > > so far 
> > > exactly as was
> > > >reported 
> > > 
> > > it looks like it should be great fun to climb tho too 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > but yikes what kind of advice were you asked for 
> > > 
> > > what the marker should look like perhaps 
> > > 
> > > or maybe where they should put it 
> > > 
> > > &
> > > > did you ask or learn how & when the tripoint ever managed to get up
> out
> > > of the river & 
> > > onto the island 
> > > from the position specified in the 1923 treaty of lausanne & ibs 41 
> > > 
> > > for that is the bigger mystery 
> > > 
> > > &
> > > > this could still prove to be a chdefr style ceremonial monumentation
> > 
> > > for a still legally wet tripoint 
> > > without anyone even realizing it 
> > > 
> > > at least until we find the document that properly moved & dried it
> out 
> > > 
> > > --- In B
> > > >undaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, " Jesper Nielsen " <jesniel@i...> wrote: 
> > > > My guess is CSHURO style. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The IBRG team was asked for advice on the matter on site in May. 
> > > > 
> > > &g
> > > >; 
> > > > 
> > > > Jesper 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _____ 
> > > > 
> > > > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com ]
> > > På 
> > > > vegne af aletheia kallos 
> > > >
> > > > Sendt: 3. oktober 2005 04:27 
> > > > Til: boundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com 
> > > > Emne: [BoundaryPoint] bggrtr remonumented 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > <a
> > href="http://www.sofiaecho.com/article/new-pyramid/id_11871/catid_5">http
> > >

>//www.sofiaecho.com/article/new-pyramid/id_11871/catid_5</a> 

> > > > 
> > > > can anyone find a pic of this new marker 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ______________
> > > >___________________ 
> > > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
> > > > <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com">http://mail.yahoo.com</a> 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _____ 
> > > > 
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LI
> > > >KS 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > * Visit your group "BoundaryPoint 
> > > > <<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint">http://
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> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > 
> > > <div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
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