Subject: Re: enclaves on stamps - struttin
Date: Sep 26, 2004 @ 02:29
Author: L. A. Nadybal ("L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@...>)
Prev    Post in Topic    Next [All Posts]
Prev    Post in Time    Next


I first heard of the place in my philatelic exploits, and later found
that the papal exclave had its own coins. There is a book about
them, Les monnaies du comtat venaissin by J. MEY. There are
interruptions in coin issuances, which to me, support a premise that
the Pope actually ceased to exercise sovereignty at times.

There's also: le Comtat Venaissin pontifical au début du XVe siècle
by M. ZERNER, and a bunch of tour books that summarize history over
the area.

I went to your flags site, but it's text implies that that there were
only military actions - which do not mean the pope's sovereignty
disappeared interimittently. You have to look elsewhere to
substantate that. There is a recent description of a book published
by the French state in 1791 that supports this on again off again
status as stemming from political rather than military actions;
"[Avignon] was governed by the pope's representative, the vice-legate,
and a municipal council controlled by the clergy, the nobility, and a
few priviliged bourgeois-families. Abuses in the papal administration
were widespread. Encouraged by the first results of the Revolution in
France, Avignonese Revolutionaries renewed their demands and supported
them with demonstrations. By March 1790, the revolutionaries had
gained control of the municipal council. They adopted the main
provisions of the constitution then being framed in France, but the
pope refused to accept these. After his supporters in Avignon made an
unsuccesful bid to reassert his authority by force, the
Revolutionaries declared Avignon independent of the papacy and voted
to join France (11 June 1790)". This is the Act that the Pope didn't
accept until much later.

Regards
LN


There are more detached exclaves of the Papal States, in Italy, that I
think came and went and came back. I have yet to go through notes and
photocopies I took from books when I was in Frankfurt where I got a
lot of this stuff; I also have reasonably good documentation about
exclaves of old German principalities and duchies that I think also
came and went and came back (i.e., Braunschweig was a tumult of
separate pieces). There's also Memel, north of Poland, that was in
German control then out and back in and out, but I'm not certain yet
if it was really enclaved.








--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> your source could have been the same as the fotw site
> which appears to claim the same 4 demises for papal avignon
> as you did
>
> however misguidedly for vexillology in the case of the first 3
>
>
> but i must say these satellite claves you mention do appear to
> present a novel & promising direction for further search
> if we could but find their individual dates of clavic inception &
> demise
> because
> for anything not impregnable
> there is some likelihood of demise at the time of each known
> invasion
> as well as some likelihood of ensuing resurrection
>
> or at least they do appear to stand a real chance of satisfying the
> quest for an exception
> to a rule that only keeps looking more impregnable
>
> so please do carry on in this direction if you can
>
> i would rejoice to see a true resurrection
> as i believe we all would at this point
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > I'll have to dig a little for my source, but I have it. I believe
> > three three pieces were separate - Avignon perhaps wasn't
> sacked, but
> > the other two contained just tiny little villages.
> > LN
> >
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
> <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > often attacked but never sacked
> > > evidently because the papal palace itself was impregnable
> > >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avignon#Avignon_under_the_Popes
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
> > > <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > nice try
> > > > arty pants
> > > > but what is your source for the claims of actual demises in
> > > 1663
> > > > & 1668 & 1768
> > > >
> > > > there were invasions for sure
> > > > & possibly even military occupations in these years &or
> others
> > > > i would not disagree
> > > >
> > > > but all these encyclopedias & others
> > > > http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/C/ComtatV1e.asp
> > > > http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/C/ComtatVe.html
> > > >
> http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Comtat-Venaissin
> > > > agree that this clave actually remained under papal control
> > > > continuously between 1274 & 1791
> > > > & that its only actual political demise occurred in 1791
> > > >
> > > > perhaps there is room for a difference of opinion in this
> case
> > > > depending on the particulars of the invasions &or
> occupations
> > > > of which i am admittedly unaware
> > > > but i havent found any hard evidence of the demises you
> claim
> > > >
> > > > anyway
> > > > please carry on
> > > > if you can
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> > > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
> > > > <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > strut your stuff len
> > > > >
> > > > > OK "smarty pants" - here goes: this is Nr. 1.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Comtat Venaissin is limited by the rivers Rhône and
> > > > Durance and
> > > > > the Mount Ventoux. It is named after its former capital city
> > > > Venasque
> > > > > (Vindascinum), now a village of about 600 inhabitants.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the XIIIth century, the Comtat Venaissin belonged to
> > > > Alphonse de
> > > > > Poitiers (1220-1271), a Capetian prince, son of king of
> > > France
> > > > Louis
> > > > > VIII. Some authorities say it was ceded to the pope in
> 1218
> > > by
> > > > > Raymond VII, count of Toulouse. Alphonse (or Philip the
> > > > Bold??)
> > > > > bequeathed (or ceded??)the Comtat to the Holy See,
> which
> > > > incorporated
> > > > > it in 1274. On 19 June 1348, countess Jeanne
> (1326-1382),
> > > > better known
> > > > > as queen Jeanne de Naples, sold Avignon to pope
> Clement
> > > VI,
> > > > who
> > > > > incorporated it into Comtat. Avignon and the Comtat
> > > Venaissin
> > > > then
> > > > > formed the 'Papal enclave', which developed
> independently
> > > > from France.
> > > > > The enclave, which was geographically detached from
> other
> > > > parts of
> > > > > the Papal states, itself had an exclave to its east called
> > > > "Darbous".
> > > > >
> > > > > The economical and cultural development of the enclave
> > > > encouraged the
> > > > > kings of France to attempt to grab it. The enclave was
> taken
> > > > over by
> > > > > the French in 1663, again in 1668 and yet again between
> > > > 1768-1774. In
> > > > > 1791, the bourgeois and the merchants of Avignon
> promoted
> > > > the
> > > > > incorporation of the enclave to France, which was
> effective on
> > > > 14
> > > > > September 1791. The Holy See recognized the annexion
> only
> > > > in 1814.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, here we have an enclave and it's satellite exclave that
> > > > "came and
> > > > > went" at least three times.
> > > > >
> > > > > For a map - see my site:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://exclave.info/former/papalstates/papalfrance/papalfrance.ht
> > > > ml