so many question marks
so imperceptible a question
so delirious a rant
but here you can see the 4 more or less de jure azerbaijan
political exclaves & the 1 more or less de jure armenia political
exclave currently acknowledged by the cia clavoscopist at least
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/armenia_pol_20
02.jpg
& here you can see the ethnic & de facto political armenian
exclave of nagorno karabakh
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/azerbaijan.gif
which armenia has occupied since the 1994 cease fire
along with some 16 percent of the rest of azerbaijan territory
in areas unspecified by the cia & not indicated here in outline
but likely adjacent to nagorno karabakh &or to de jure armenia
in other words
the places where the present effectivities of one country end &
those of the other begin are actually unknown by us
& there are in fact multiple question marks
along their several effective borders
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
<lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> "... a clave in particular namely nagorno karabakh...????
Nagorno
> has never been a political enclave - never anything more more
than an
> ethnic one coalesced by force with a couple of pockets of the
"other
> side's people" still in it. Countries composed "of, by and for"
only
> one founding ethnic group are "out", if you hadn't heard - they
are
> despised, not to be recognized. Being "out" is why we have the
demise
> of European nation states that are losing their characters as
homes
> for the communal protection of Germans alone in the case of
Germany,
> as is the case for Denmark as a home for Danish alone, and
as in the
> case of London was as a capital for the British alone, etc. As
these
> countries are infiltrated by immigrants who flee their home
countries
> rather than organize and fight for good government, the return,
for
> example, of a Spain under the Moors within which the
"Spanish" become
> like "Nagornos" isn't hard to contemplate.
>
>
> LN
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
<aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kaufman
> > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > Is there evidence you have which would make you
> > > believe that the two enclaves south of Tatli no longer
> > > exist?
> >
> > fair question
> > & i must answer no
> > not any hard or direct evidence that would
> > make
> > me
> > believe
> > that
> >
> > but the fact that the countries involved have been at war with
> > each other since even before the soviet collapse
> > & the fact that so much of the fighting has been over their
> > boundaries in general & the possession of a clave in
particular
> > namely nagorno karabakh
> > where nobody even knows who owns what any longer
> > or at least i dont know
> > all leads me to be at least a little circumspect about
presuming
> > indefinite continuation of any particular detail of the status
quo
> > ante 1988 anywhere in the greater amaz area
> >
> > The latest topomap brought to this group shows
> > > them there. No one in this group has shown any kind
> > > of international treaty or official accord suggesting
> > > otherwise (to this point). Brendan earlier brought a
> > > very nice piece to us from the Serb embassy discussing
> > > the Sastavci enclave, for example. So if someone had
> > > something like that to share that would be good and
> > > helpful.
> >
> > yes good idea
> >
> > some evidence
> >
> > any evidence
> >
> > &or anything just very nice or helpful to share
> >
> > yes that might well be plenty too
> >
> > Or if someone has a new official topomap
> > > that would be helpful. Or at least anything other
> > > than "well I can't prove they don't exist but I
> > > challenge you to prove they do hahahaha."
> >
> > yikes
> > i think i see what has happened here
> > improbable as it is
> >
> > i actually did say something other than that in message
15333
> > to which your quotation of me here apparently refers
> > but i said it as follows
> >
> >
> > quote
> > i certainly cant prove the negative
> >
> > rather it is the job of the clavoscopist to prove the positive
> > close quote
> >
> > if i may say it again just that way
> >
> > rather than the way you have put it between quotation marks
here
> >
> >
> > unless you were taking liberties with a different passage of
mine
> > i can no longer even recognize from your supposed quotation
> >
> >
> > but did you just need me to say this one a little differently
> >
> >
> > is that what you mean by
> > at least anything other than
> > your misrepresentation of it
> >
> > well then how is this
> >
> >
> > i only think the clavoscopist
> > whether that is me or you or whoever aspires to be one
> > has this job or function or role of actually seeing the clave
> > because this word in plain barbarian just means
> > the person who sees the clave
> >
> > & job is too loaded a word for bp anyway
> > so i will be glad to say something other than that too
> >
> > better to say play or honors or move or caper
> > or something more like that anyway
> >
> > because for me this is just an extremely light game
> > & i really cant & dont take any of it including myself very
heavily
> >
> > not that i blame anyone who does
> > but it is just fun with me
> >
> > as i have been saying since message 4
> >
> >
> > so let me take the opportunity to correct myself while saying
at
> > least anything other than i actually said
> > as well as at least anything other than you said i said
> >
> > here goes
> >
> > pay attention now
> >
> > it is the
> > p l a y
> > of the clavoscopist to prove the positive
> >
> >
> > But again,
> > > lacking (at least collectively in BP context) any of
> > > this evidence to suggest the claves no longer exist,
> > > there's no reason to assume by default that they don't
> > > exist.
> >
> > i agree
> > & i dont think i have assumed they dont exist
> > do you
> >
> > do you assume by default i have assumed they dont exist
> >
> > i believe i have been entirely unassuming in this matter
> >
> > but i will let you assume even more of the assuming if you
wish
> >
> > complete
> >
> >
> > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were
> > > > talking about
> > > > enclaves on stamps because the message title still
> > > > does say
> > > > enclaves on stamps
> > > > even now
> > > > oops
> > > >
> > > > but the claves we were discussing in the text you
> > > > have added to
> > > > here are not the ones on the stamps that the thread
> > > > began with
> > > > & that you probably still have in mind
> > > >
> > > > rather these claves are not on any stamps at all
> > > > that we know of
> > > > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > > > so far as we know
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > & i dont believe there is any question of nihilism
> > > > or any other sort
> > > > of denial here
> > > >
> > > > rather we were only following up on what i think
> > > > chris or
> > > > someone else had previously & i think very sensibly
> > > > said of
> > > > these maybeclaves
> > > > namely
> > > > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist
> > > > unbekannt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > or in plain barbarian
> > > >
> > > > whether they
> > > > e v e r
> > > > actually functioned as claves
> > > > is
> > > > unknown
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any
> > > > nihilism there
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > & mike
> > > > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > > > dont you worry the turtle might stick his head up
> > > > from his mozart
> > > > again as he last did in message 13685
> > > > hahahahaha
> > > > i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> > > > subscription again
> > > > hahaha
> > > > certainly one of our funniest moments
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> > > > so please just tell me
> > > > quietly & simply if possible
> > > > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > > > & exactly which of your writings i am refusing to
> > > > read
> > > > so i can at least consider or reconsider what you
> > > > mean
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
> > > >
> > > > but i do think we are all super heroes
> > > >
> > > > in fact i am sure of it
> > > >
> > > > we are all positively divine
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> > > > Nadybal"
> > > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > > > Map stamps are usually issued to press border
> > > > claims - it
> > > > takes too
> > > > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp showing
> > > > an exclave
> > > > for the
> > > > > reasoning human being to think that what is
> > > > pictured on map
> > > > stamps
> > > > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's on
> > > > new stamps
> > > > (and
> > > > > these are relatively new) does exist in the mind
> > > > of the stamp
> > > > issuing
> > > > > party, and you can be certain that in the mind of
> > > > the issuer, it
> > > > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last heard
> > > > of". Your
> > > > logic is
> > > > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of" the
> > > > Americas prior
> > > > to
> > > > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that it
> > > > was and had gone
> > > > away
> > > > > at some earlier point in time if it had ever been
> > > > there. Nihilist
> > > > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus on
> > > > his arrival
> > > > were
> > > > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America for
> > > > quite some
> > > > time.
> > > > > LN
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > Kaufman
> > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > I am not delusional. I am not misrepresenting
> > > > what
> > > > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> > > > actually DID
> > > > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or answer
> > > > the
> > > > > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
> > > > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly cant
> > > > prove
> > > > > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> > > > clavoscopist
> > > > > > to prove the affirmative" This is tantamount to
> > > > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent. Guilty
> > > > until
> > > > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> > > > delusional...
> > > > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of 1978,
> > > > cast
> > > > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to dress
> > > > up
> > > > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what i
> > > > actually
> > > > > > > said & did
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > my questioning what you believe & claim exists
> > > >
> > > > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has
> > > > seen any
> > > > > > > evidence
> > > > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a
> > > > century
> > > > > > > for starters
> > > > > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer
> > > > exists
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > > > but only your specific self delusions about me
> > > > & it
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions that
> > > > you
> > > > > > > are even
> > > > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > but i just dont share any of this sense with
> > > > you in
> > > > > > > common
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> > > > confidence in
> > > > > > > any of
> > > > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > a map
> > > > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > > > like all other data
> > > > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > > > but are always selective & necessarily partial
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > as well as dated
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be the
> > > > > > > mother of all
> > > > > > > delusion
> > > > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense. The
> > > > maps
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in 1978.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > claves
> > > > > > > > were left as they were. You can't just
> > > > assume
> > > > > > > > something goes away because you yourself
> > > > want it
> > > > > > > to go
> > > > > > > > away. What real evidence do you have saying
> > > > they
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that the
> > > > other
> > > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because they
> > > > > > > haven't
> > > > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the last
> > > > map
> > > > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> > > > (hypothetically),
> > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > that mean we should question whether they've
> > > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your afterword
> > > > here
> > > > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed move
> > > > about
> > > > > > > etc
> > > > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> > > > supposedly
> > > > > > > true at
> > > > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > > > they were last visited &or reported etc
> > > > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about the
> > > > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of
> > > > reporting on
> > > > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & you have proved these particular crumbs
> > > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> > > > questionable
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > > > however unworth questioning just to reduce
> > > > by 2
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > > during which i still do believe they
> > > > havent been
> > > > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments &
> > > > nation
> > > > > > > states
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times all
> > > > thru
> > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize & mention
> > > > all the
> > > > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but have
> > > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least 26
> > > > of
> > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > so i am content to believe them real as of
> > > > 1976
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher data
> > > > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> > > > provides it
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & i have just been responding to your
> > > > claim in
> > > > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them but
> > > > i
> > > > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > Michael
> > > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint could
> > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just
> > > > didn't
> > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have
> > > > moved (or
> > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that it
> > > > wasn't
> > > > > > > shown
> > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or said
> > > > it
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it was
> > > > or
> > > > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring clavoscopist
> > > > to be
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the cartographers
> > > > knew
> > > > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or wrote
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific
> > > > inkling
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt & wouldnt
> > > > have
> > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just
> > > > scrawled a
> > > > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know in
> > > > that
> > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they redraw
> > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple overprint
> > > > was
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely have
> > > > added
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer
> > > > existed. I
> > > > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the map
> > > > for such
> > > > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > __________________________________
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