"... a clave in particular namely nagorno karabakh...???? Nagorno
has never been a political enclave - never anything more more than an
ethnic one coalesced by force with a couple of pockets of the "other
side's people" still in it. Countries composed "of, by and for" only
one founding ethnic group are "out", if you hadn't heard - they are
despised, not to be recognized. Being "out" is why we have the demise
of European nation states that are losing their characters as homes
for the communal protection of Germans alone in the case of Germany,
as is the case for Denmark as a home for Danish alone, and as in the
case of London was as a capital for the British alone, etc. As these
countries are infiltrated by immigrants who flee their home countries
rather than organize and fight for good government, the return, for
example, of a Spain under the Moors within which the "Spanish" become
like "Nagornos" isn't hard to contemplate.
LN
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kaufman
> <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > Is there evidence you have which would make you
> > believe that the two enclaves south of Tatli no longer
> > exist?
>
> fair question
> & i must answer no
> not any hard or direct evidence that would
> make
> me
> believe
> that
>
> but the fact that the countries involved have been at war with
> each other since even before the soviet collapse
> & the fact that so much of the fighting has been over their
> boundaries in general & the possession of a clave in particular
> namely nagorno karabakh
> where nobody even knows who owns what any longer
> or at least i dont know
> all leads me to be at least a little circumspect about presuming
> indefinite continuation of any particular detail of the status quo
> ante 1988 anywhere in the greater amaz area
>
> The latest topomap brought to this group shows
> > them there. No one in this group has shown any kind
> > of international treaty or official accord suggesting
> > otherwise (to this point). Brendan earlier brought a
> > very nice piece to us from the Serb embassy discussing
> > the Sastavci enclave, for example. So if someone had
> > something like that to share that would be good and
> > helpful.
>
> yes good idea
>
> some evidence
>
> any evidence
>
> &or anything just very nice or helpful to share
>
> yes that might well be plenty too
>
> Or if someone has a new official topomap
> > that would be helpful. Or at least anything other
> > than "well I can't prove they don't exist but I
> > challenge you to prove they do hahahaha."
>
> yikes
> i think i see what has happened here
> improbable as it is
>
> i actually did say something other than that in message 15333
> to which your quotation of me here apparently refers
> but i said it as follows
>
>
> quote
> i certainly cant prove the negative
>
> rather it is the job of the clavoscopist to prove the positive
> close quote
>
> if i may say it again just that way
>
> rather than the way you have put it between quotation marks here
>
>
> unless you were taking liberties with a different passage of mine
> i can no longer even recognize from your supposed quotation
>
>
> but did you just need me to say this one a little differently
>
>
> is that what you mean by
> at least anything other than
> your misrepresentation of it
>
> well then how is this
>
>
> i only think the clavoscopist
> whether that is me or you or whoever aspires to be one
> has this job or function or role of actually seeing the clave
> because this word in plain barbarian just means
> the person who sees the clave
>
> & job is too loaded a word for bp anyway
> so i will be glad to say something other than that too
>
> better to say play or honors or move or caper
> or something more like that anyway
>
> because for me this is just an extremely light game
> & i really cant & dont take any of it including myself very heavily
>
> not that i blame anyone who does
> but it is just fun with me
>
> as i have been saying since message 4
>
>
> so let me take the opportunity to correct myself while saying at
> least anything other than i actually said
> as well as at least anything other than you said i said
>
> here goes
>
> pay attention now
>
> it is the
> p l a y
> of the clavoscopist to prove the positive
>
>
> But again,
> > lacking (at least collectively in BP context) any of
> > this evidence to suggest the claves no longer exist,
> > there's no reason to assume by default that they don't
> > exist.
>
> i agree
> & i dont think i have assumed they dont exist
> do you
>
> do you assume by default i have assumed they dont exist
>
> i believe i have been entirely unassuming in this matter
>
> but i will let you assume even more of the assuming if you wish
>
> complete
>
>
> > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were
> > > talking about
> > > enclaves on stamps because the message title still
> > > does say
> > > enclaves on stamps
> > > even now
> > > oops
> > >
> > > but the claves we were discussing in the text you
> > > have added to
> > > here are not the ones on the stamps that the thread
> > > began with
> > > & that you probably still have in mind
> > >
> > > rather these claves are not on any stamps at all
> > > that we know of
> > > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > > so far as we know
> > >
> > >
> > > & i dont believe there is any question of nihilism
> > > or any other sort
> > > of denial here
> > >
> > > rather we were only following up on what i think
> > > chris or
> > > someone else had previously & i think very sensibly
> > > said of
> > > these maybeclaves
> > > namely
> > > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist
> > > unbekannt
> > >
> > >
> > > or in plain barbarian
> > >
> > > whether they
> > > e v e r
> > > actually functioned as claves
> > > is
> > > unknown
> > >
> > >
> > > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any
> > > nihilism there
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > & mike
> > > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > > dont you worry the turtle might stick his head up
> > > from his mozart
> > > again as he last did in message 13685
> > > hahahahaha
> > > i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> > > subscription again
> > > hahaha
> > > certainly one of our funniest moments
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> > > so please just tell me
> > > quietly & simply if possible
> > > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > > & exactly which of your writings i am refusing to
> > > read
> > > so i can at least consider or reconsider what you
> > > mean
> > >
> > >
> > > & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
> > >
> > > but i do think we are all super heroes
> > >
> > > in fact i am sure of it
> > >
> > > we are all positively divine
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> > > Nadybal"
> > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > > Map stamps are usually issued to press border
> > > claims - it
> > > takes too
> > > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp showing
> > > an exclave
> > > for the
> > > > reasoning human being to think that what is
> > > pictured on map
> > > stamps
> > > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's on
> > > new stamps
> > > (and
> > > > these are relatively new) does exist in the mind
> > > of the stamp
> > > issuing
> > > > party, and you can be certain that in the mind of
> > > the issuer, it
> > > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last heard
> > > of". Your
> > > logic is
> > > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of" the
> > > Americas prior
> > > to
> > > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that it
> > > was and had gone
> > > away
> > > > at some earlier point in time if it had ever been
> > > there. Nihilist
> > > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus on
> > > his arrival
> > > were
> > > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America for
> > > quite some
> > > time.
> > > > LN
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > I am not delusional. I am not misrepresenting
> > > what
> > > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> > > actually DID
> > > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or answer
> > > the
> > > > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
> > > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly cant
> > > prove
> > > > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> > > clavoscopist
> > > > > to prove the affirmative" This is tantamount to
> > > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent. Guilty
> > > until
> > > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> > > delusional...
> > > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of 1978,
> > > cast
> > > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to dress
> > > up
> > > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what i
> > > actually
> > > > > > said & did
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my questioning what you believe & claim exists
> > >
> > > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has
> > > seen any
> > > > > > evidence
> > > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a
> > > century
> > > > > > for starters
> > > > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer
> > > exists
> > > > > >
> > > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > > >
> > > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > > but only your specific self delusions about me
> > > & it
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions that
> > > you
> > > > > > are even
> > > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but i just dont share any of this sense with
> > > you in
> > > > > > common
> > > > > >
> > > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> > > confidence in
> > > > > > any of
> > > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a map
> > > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > > like all other data
> > > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > > but are always selective & necessarily partial
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > as well as dated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be the
> > > > > > mother of all
> > > > > > delusion
> > > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense. The
> > > maps
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in 1978.
> > > The
> > > > > > claves
> > > > > > > were left as they were. You can't just
> > > assume
> > > > > > > something goes away because you yourself
> > > want it
> > > > > > to go
> > > > > > > away. What real evidence do you have saying
> > > they
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that the
> > > other
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because they
> > > > > > haven't
> > > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the last
> > > map
> > > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> > > (hypothetically),
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > that mean we should question whether they've
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your afterword
> > > here
> > > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed move
> > > about
> > > > > > etc
> > > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> > > supposedly
> > > > > > true at
> > > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > > they were last visited &or reported etc
> > > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about the
> > > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of
> > > reporting on
> > > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & you have proved these particular crumbs
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> > > questionable
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > > however unworth questioning just to reduce
> > > by 2
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > during which i still do believe they
> > > havent been
> > > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments &
> > > nation
> > > > > > states
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times all
> > > thru
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize & mention
> > > all the
> > > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but have
> > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least 26
> > > of
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so i am content to believe them real as of
> > > 1976
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher data
> > > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> > > provides it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & i have just been responding to your
> > > claim in
> > > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them but
> > > i
> > > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > Michael
> > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint could
> > > have
> > > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just
> > > didn't
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have
> > > moved (or
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that it
> > > wasn't
> > > > > > shown
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or said
> > > it
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it was
> > > or
> > > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring clavoscopist
> > > to be
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the cartographers
> > > knew
> > > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or wrote
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific
> > > inkling
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt & wouldnt
> > > have
> > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just
> > > scrawled a
> > > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know in
> > > that
> > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they redraw
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple overprint
> > > was
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely have
> > > added
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer
> > > existed. I
> > > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the map
> > > for such
> > > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________
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