Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: enclaves on stamps
Date: Sep 15, 2004 @ 05:09
Author: Michael Kaufman (Michael Kaufman <mikekaufman79@...>)
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Again, maybe if you didn't absolutely ignore messgaes
15388 and 15365, you would have seen me quote the
specific passage of yours correctly. Once more here
comes common sense, though it seems you don't like to
partake in that type of stuff (as per 15359).
Considering that I quoted you correctly twice, it
should be common sense that I know Exactly what you
wrote. But it is in fact you who is full of
misconceptions as shown by your latest message.
Having either not read or understood 15388 and 15365,
you mistakenly think I am "misquoting" you in 15391.
If you have read and understood the entire thread,
especially 15388 and 15365, you would have realized
that this is not the case. The quote below is NOT
specifically attributed to you. It is however,
representative of the general postion you seem to
support. (If I wanted to use your quote I would have
done so just like I did in 15388 and 15365.)
Again you're getting caught up in semantics to the
point of absurdity.
And I'm STILL waiting for your responses 15388... aka
the responses to the questions you asked me to ask you
in 15374.


--- aletheiak <aletheiak@...> wrote:

> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> Kaufman
> <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > Is there evidence you have which would make you
> > believe that the two enclaves south of Tatli no
> longer
> > exist?
>
> fair question
> & i must answer no
> not any hard or direct evidence that would
> make
> me
> believe
> that
>
> but the fact that the countries involved have been
> at war with
> each other since even before the soviet collapse
> & the fact that so much of the fighting has been
> over their
> boundaries in general & the possession of a clave in
> particular
> namely nagorno karabakh
> where nobody even knows who owns what any longer
> or at least i dont know
> all leads me to be at least a little circumspect
> about presuming
> indefinite continuation of any particular detail of
> the status quo
> ante 1988 anywhere in the greater amaz area
>
> The latest topomap brought to this group shows
> > them there. No one in this group has shown any
> kind
> > of international treaty or official accord
> suggesting
> > otherwise (to this point). Brendan earlier
> brought a
> > very nice piece to us from the Serb embassy
> discussing
> > the Sastavci enclave, for example. So if someone
> had
> > something like that to share that would be good
> and
> > helpful.
>
> yes good idea
>
> some evidence
>
> any evidence
>
> &or anything just very nice or helpful to share
>
> yes that might well be plenty too
>
> Or if someone has a new official topomap
> > that would be helpful. Or at least anything other
> > than "well I can't prove they don't exist but I
> > challenge you to prove they do hahahaha."
>
> yikes
> i think i see what has happened here
> improbable as it is
>
> i actually did say something other than that in
> message 15333
> to which your quotation of me here apparently refers
> but i said it as follows
>
>
> quote
> i certainly cant prove the negative
>
> rather it is the job of the clavoscopist to prove
> the positive
> close quote
>
> if i may say it again just that way
>
> rather than the way you have put it between
> quotation marks here
>
>
> unless you were taking liberties with a different
> passage of mine
> i can no longer even recognize from your supposed
> quotation
>
>
> but did you just need me to say this one a little
> differently
>
>
> is that what you mean by
> at least anything other than
> your misrepresentation of it
>
> well then how is this
>
>
> i only think the clavoscopist
> whether that is me or you or whoever aspires to be
> one
> has this job or function or role of actually seeing
> the clave
> because this word in plain barbarian just means
> the person who sees the clave
>
> & job is too loaded a word for bp anyway
> so i will be glad to say something other than that
> too
>
> better to say play or honors or move or caper
> or something more like that anyway
>
> because for me this is just an extremely light game
> & i really cant & dont take any of it including
> myself very heavily
>
> not that i blame anyone who does
> but it is just fun with me
>
> as i have been saying since message 4
>
>
> so let me take the opportunity to correct myself
> while saying at
> least anything other than i actually said
> as well as at least anything other than you said i
> said
>
> here goes
>
> pay attention now
>
> it is the
> p l a y
> of the clavoscopist to prove the positive
>
>
> But again,
> > lacking (at least collectively in BP context) any
> of
> > this evidence to suggest the claves no longer
> exist,
> > there's no reason to assume by default that they
> don't
> > exist.
>
> i agree
> & i dont think i have assumed they dont exist
> do you
>
> do you assume by default i have assumed they dont
> exist
>
> i believe i have been entirely unassuming in this
> matter
>
> but i will let you assume even more of the assuming
> if you wish
>
> complete
>
>
> > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were
> > > talking about
> > > enclaves on stamps because the message title
> still
> > > does say
> > > enclaves on stamps
> > > even now
> > > oops
> > >
> > > but the claves we were discussing in the text
> you
> > > have added to
> > > here are not the ones on the stamps that the
> thread
> > > began with
> > > & that you probably still have in mind
> > >
> > > rather these claves are not on any stamps at all
> > > that we know of
> > > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > > so far as we know
> > >
> > >
> > > & i dont believe there is any question of
> nihilism
> > > or any other sort
> > > of denial here
> > >
> > > rather we were only following up on what i think
> > > chris or
> > > someone else had previously & i think very
> sensibly
> > > said of
> > > these maybeclaves
> > > namely
> > > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist
> > > unbekannt
> > >
> > >
> > > or in plain barbarian
> > >
> > > whether they
> > > e v e r
> > > actually functioned as claves
> > > is
> > > unknown
> > >
> > >
> > > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any
> > > nihilism there
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > & mike
> > > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > > dont you worry the turtle might stick his head
> up
> > > from his mozart
> > > again as he last did in message 13685
> > > hahahahaha
> > > i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> > > subscription again
> > > hahaha
> > > certainly one of our funniest moments
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> > > so please just tell me
> > > quietly & simply if possible
> > > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > > & exactly which of your writings i am refusing
> to
> > > read
> > > so i can at least consider or reconsider what
> you
> > > mean
> > >
> > >
> > > & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
> > >
> > > but i do think we are all super heroes
> > >
> > > in fact i am sure of it
> > >
> > > we are all positively divine
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> > > Nadybal"
> > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > > Map stamps are usually issued to press border
> > > claims - it
> > > takes too
> > > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp
> showing
> > > an exclave
> > > for the
> > > > reasoning human being to think that what is
> > > pictured on map
> > > stamps
> > > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's
> on
> > > new stamps
> > > (and
> > > > these are relatively new) does exist in the
> mind
> > > of the stamp
> > > issuing
> > > > party, and you can be certain that in the mind
> of
> > > the issuer, it
> > > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last
> heard
> > > of". Your
> > > logic is
> > > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of"
> the
> > > Americas prior
> > > to
> > > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that
> it
> > > was and had gone
> > > away
> > > > at some earlier point in time if it had ever
> been
> > > there. Nihilist
> > > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus
> on
> > > his arrival
> > > were
> > > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America
> for
> > > quite some
> > > time.
> > > > LN
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > I am not delusional. I am not
> misrepresenting
> > > what
> > > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> > > actually DID
> > > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or
> answer
> > > the
> > > > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
>
> > > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly
> cant
> > > prove
> > > > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> > > clavoscopist
> > > > > to prove the affirmative" This is
> tantamount to
> > > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent.
> Guilty
> > > until
> > > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> > > delusional...
> > > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of
> 1978,
> > > cast
> > > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to
> dress
> > > up
> > > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what
> i
> > > actually
> > > > > > said & did
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my questioning what you believe & claim
> exists
> > >
> > > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has
> > > seen any
> > > > > > evidence
> > > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a
> > > century
> > > > > > for starters
> > > > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer
> > > exists
> > > > > >
> > > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > > >
> > > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > > but only your specific self delusions
> about me
> > > & it
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions
> that
> > > you
> > > > > > are even
> > > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but i just dont share any of this sense
> with
> > > you in
> > > > > > common
> > > > > >
> > > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> > > confidence in
> > > > > > any of
> > > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a map
> > > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > > like all other data
> > > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > > but are always selective & necessarily
> partial
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > as well as dated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be
> the
> > > > > > mother of all
> > > > > > delusion
> > > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael
> > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense.
> The
> > > maps
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in
> 1978.
> > > The
> > > > > > claves
> > > > > > > were left as they were. You can't just
> > > assume
> > > > > > > something goes away because you yourself
> > > want it
> > > > > > to go
> > > > > > > away. What real evidence do you have
> saying
> > > they
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that
> the
> > > other
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because
> they
> > > > > > haven't
> > > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the
> last
> > > map
> > > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> > > (hypothetically),
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > that mean we should question whether
> they've
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your
> afterword
> > > here
> > > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed
> move
> > > about
> > > > > > etc
> > > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> > > supposedly
> > > > > > true at
> > > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > > they were last visited &or reported
> etc
> > > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about
> the
> > > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of
> > > reporting on
> > > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & you have proved these particular
> crumbs
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> > > questionable
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > > however unworth questioning just to
> reduce
> > > by 2
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > during which i still do believe they
> > > havent been
> > > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments &
> > > nation
> > > > > > states
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times
> all
> > > thru
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize &
> mention
> > > all the
> > > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but
> have
> > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least
> 26
> > > of
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so i am content to believe them real
> as of
> > > 1976
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher
> data
> > > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> > > provides it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & i have just been responding to your
> > > claim in
> > > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them
> but
> > > i
> > > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > Michael
> > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint
> could
> > > have
> > > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just
> > > didn't
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have
> > > moved (or
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that
> it
> > > wasn't
> > > > > > shown
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or
> said
> > > it
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it
> was
> > > or
> > > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring
> clavoscopist
> > > to be
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the
> cartographers
> > > knew
> > > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or
> wrote
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or
> said
> > > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific
> > > inkling
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In
> BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were
> discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt &
> wouldnt
> > > have
> > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just
> > > scrawled a
> > > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know
> in
> > > that
> > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they
> redraw
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple
> overprint
> > > was
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely
> have
> > > added
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer
> > > existed. I
> > > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the
> map
> > > for such
> > > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________
> > > > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
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> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________
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>




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