When I first read your post, I didn't think you meant
postage, but the overlay/update. And I was perplexed
because it seemed to me like you were making both my
and Mike D.'s points and agreeing with both of us.
But then I realized the title of the post still made
reference to the stamps (and so I that's why I asked
the question). I think a year or so ago, people
really used the --> in subject titles to indicate
change. We should probably all do that more often.
Obviously neither Mike or I changed the title. And
Mike I know you don't like to use these "-->" symbols
to indicate subject change and I do see you often use
"was" instead. (though I do think "WAS" would be more
effective :))
--- "L. A. Nadybal" <
lnadybal@...> wrote:
> Very well put.
> Yes, to answer a question put "long ago", I did mean
> postage.
> LN
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> Kaufman
> <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > Is there evidence you have which would make you
> > believe that the two enclaves south of Tatli no
> longer
> > exist? The latest topomap brought to this group
> shows
> > them there. No one in this group has shown any
> kind
> > of international treaty or official accord
> suggesting
> > otherwise (to this point). Brendan earlier
> brought a
> > very nice piece to us from the Serb embassy
> discussing
> > the Sastavci enclave, for example. So if someone
> had
> > something like that to share that would be good
> and
> > helpful. Or if someone has a new official topomap
> > that would be helpful. Or at least anything other
> > than "well I can't prove they don't exist but I
> > challenge you to prove they do hahahaha." But
> again,
> > lacking (at least collectively in BP context) any
> of
> > this evidence to suggest the claves no longer
> exist,
> > there's no reason to assume by default that they
> don't
> > exist.
> >
> > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were
> > > talking about
> > > enclaves on stamps because the message title
> still
> > > does say
> > > enclaves on stamps
> > > even now
> > > oops
> > >
> > > but the claves we were discussing in the text
> you
> > > have added to
> > > here are not the ones on the stamps that the
> thread
> > > began with
> > > & that you probably still have in mind
> > >
> > > rather these claves are not on any stamps at all
> > > that we know of
> > > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > > so far as we know
> > >
> > >
> > > & i dont believe there is any question of
> nihilism
> > > or any other sort
> > > of denial here
> > >
> > > rather we were only following up on what i think
> > > chris or
> > > someone else had previously & i think very
> sensibly
> > > said of
> > > these maybeclaves
> > > namely
> > > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist
> > > unbekannt
> > >
> > >
> > > or in plain barbarian
> > >
> > > whether they
> > > e v e r
> > > actually functioned as claves
> > > is
> > > unknown
> > >
> > >
> > > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any
> > > nihilism there
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > & mike
> > > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > > dont you worry the turtle might stick his head
> up
> > > from his mozart
> > > again as he last did in message 13685
> > > hahahahaha
> > > i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> > > subscription again
> > > hahaha
> > > certainly one of our funniest moments
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> > > so please just tell me
> > > quietly & simply if possible
> > > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > > & exactly which of your writings i am refusing
> to
> > > read
> > > so i can at least consider or reconsider what
> you
> > > mean
> > >
> > >
> > > & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
> > >
> > > but i do think we are all super heroes
> > >
> > > in fact i am sure of it
> > >
> > > we are all positively divine
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> > > Nadybal"
> > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > > Map stamps are usually issued to press border
> > > claims - it
> > > takes too
> > > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp
> showing
> > > an exclave
> > > for the
> > > > reasoning human being to think that what is
> > > pictured on map
> > > stamps
> > > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's
> on
> > > new stamps
> > > (and
> > > > these are relatively new) does exist in the
> mind
> > > of the stamp
> > > issuing
> > > > party, and you can be certain that in the mind
> of
> > > the issuer, it
> > > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last
> heard
> > > of". Your
> > > logic is
> > > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of"
> the
> > > Americas prior
> > > to
> > > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that
> it
> > > was and had gone
> > > away
> > > > at some earlier point in time if it had ever
> been
> > > there. Nihilist
> > > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus
> on
> > > his arrival
> > > were
> > > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America
> for
> > > quite some
> > > time.
> > > > LN
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > Kaufman
> > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > I am not delusional. I am not
> misrepresenting
> > > what
> > > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> > > actually DID
> > > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or
> answer
> > > the
> > > > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
>
> > > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly
> cant
> > > prove
> > > > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> > > clavoscopist
> > > > > to prove the affirmative" This is
> tantamount to
> > > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent.
> Guilty
> > > until
> > > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> > > delusional...
> > > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of
> 1978,
> > > cast
> > > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to
> dress
> > > up
> > > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what
> i
> > > actually
> > > > > > said & did
> > > > > >
> > > > > > my questioning what you believe & claim
> exists
> > >
> > > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has
> > > seen any
> > > > > > evidence
> > > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a
> > > century
> > > > > > for starters
> > > > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer
> > > exists
> > > > > >
> > > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > > >
> > > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > > but only your specific self delusions
> about me
> > > & it
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions
> that
> > > you
> > > > > > are even
> > > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but i just dont share any of this sense
> with
> > > you in
> > > > > > common
> > > > > >
> > > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> > > confidence in
> > > > > > any of
> > > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a map
> > > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > > like all other data
> > > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > > but are always selective & necessarily
> partial
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > as well as dated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be
> the
> > > > > > mother of all
> > > > > > delusion
> > > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael
> > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense.
> The
> > > maps
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in
> 1978.
> > > The
> > > > > > claves
> > > > > > > were left as they were. You can't just
> > > assume
> > > > > > > something goes away because you yourself
> > > want it
> > > > > > to go
> > > > > > > away. What real evidence do you have
> saying
> > > they
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that
> the
> > > other
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because
> they
> > > > > > haven't
> > > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the
> last
> > > map
> > > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> > > (hypothetically),
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > > that mean we should question whether
> they've
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your
> afterword
> > > here
> > > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed
> move
> > > about
> > > > > > etc
> > > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> > > supposedly
> > > > > > true at
> > > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > > they were last visited &or reported
> etc
> > > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about
> the
> > > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of
> > > reporting on
> > > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & you have proved these particular
> crumbs
> > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> > > questionable
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > > however unworth questioning just to
> reduce
> > > by 2
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > during which i still do believe they
> > > havent been
> > > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments &
> > > nation
> > > > > > states
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times
> all
> > > thru
> > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize &
> mention
> > > all the
> > > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but
> have
> > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least
> 26
> > > of
> > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so i am content to believe them real
> as of
> > > 1976
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher
> data
> > > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> > > provides it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & i have just been responding to your
> > > claim in
> > > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them
> but
> > > i
> > > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > Michael
> > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint
> could
> > > have
> > > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just
> > > didn't
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have
> > > moved (or
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that
> it
> > > wasn't
> > > > > > shown
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or
> said
> > > it
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it
> was
> > > or
> > > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring
> clavoscopist
> > > to be
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the
> cartographers
> > > knew
> > > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or
> wrote
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or
> said
> > > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific
> > > inkling
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In
> BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were
> discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt &
> wouldnt
> > > have
> > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just
> > > scrawled a
> > > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know
> in
> > > that
> > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they
> redraw
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple
> overprint
> > > was
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely
> have
> > > added
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer
> > > existed. I
> > > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the
> map
> > > for such
> > > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________
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