Very well put.
Yes, to answer a question put "long ago", I did mean postage.
LN
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Kaufman
<mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> Is there evidence you have which would make you
> believe that the two enclaves south of Tatli no longer
> exist? The latest topomap brought to this group shows
> them there. No one in this group has shown any kind
> of international treaty or official accord suggesting
> otherwise (to this point). Brendan earlier brought a
> very nice piece to us from the Serb embassy discussing
> the Sastavci enclave, for example. So if someone had
> something like that to share that would be good and
> helpful. Or if someone has a new official topomap
> that would be helpful. Or at least anything other
> than "well I can't prove they don't exist but I
> challenge you to prove they do hahahaha." But again,
> lacking (at least collectively in BP context) any of
> this evidence to suggest the claves no longer exist,
> there's no reason to assume by default that they don't
> exist.
>
> --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
>
> > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we were
> > talking about
> > enclaves on stamps because the message title still
> > does say
> > enclaves on stamps
> > even now
> > oops
> >
> > but the claves we were discussing in the text you
> > have added to
> > here are not the ones on the stamps that the thread
> > began with
> > & that you probably still have in mind
> >
> > rather these claves are not on any stamps at all
> > that we know of
> > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > so far as we know
> >
> >
> > & i dont believe there is any question of nihilism
> > or any other sort
> > of denial here
> >
> > rather we were only following up on what i think
> > chris or
> > someone else had previously & i think very sensibly
> > said of
> > these maybeclaves
> > namely
> > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben ist
> > unbekannt
> >
> >
> > or in plain barbarian
> >
> > whether they
> > e v e r
> > actually functioned as claves
> > is
> > unknown
> >
> >
> > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than any
> > nihilism there
> >
> >
> >
> > & mike
> > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > dont you worry the turtle might stick his head up
> > from his mozart
> > again as he last did in message 13685
> > hahahahaha
> > i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> > subscription again
> > hahaha
> > certainly one of our funniest moments
> >
> >
> >
> > but anyway i still really dont follow you here
> > so please just tell me
> > quietly & simply if possible
> > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > & exactly which of your writings i am refusing to
> > read
> > so i can at least consider or reconsider what you
> > mean
> >
> >
> > & i dont think any of us is guilty of anything
> >
> > but i do think we are all super heroes
> >
> > in fact i am sure of it
> >
> > we are all positively divine
> >
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> > Nadybal"
> > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > Map stamps are usually issued to press border
> > claims - it
> > takes too
> > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp showing
> > an exclave
> > for the
> > > reasoning human being to think that what is
> > pictured on map
> > stamps
> > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued). What's on
> > new stamps
> > (and
> > > these are relatively new) does exist in the mind
> > of the stamp
> > issuing
> > > party, and you can be certain that in the mind of
> > the issuer, it
> > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was last heard
> > of". Your
> > logic is
> > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard of" the
> > Americas prior
> > to
> > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or that it
> > was and had gone
> > away
> > > at some earlier point in time if it had ever been
> > there. Nihilist
> > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted Columbus on
> > his arrival
> > were
> > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave America for
> > quite some
> > time.
> > > LN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > Kaufman
> > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > I am not delusional. I am not misrepresenting
> > what
> > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> > actually DID
> > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or answer
> > the
> > > > questions I have posed to you specifically.
> > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i certainly cant
> > prove
> > > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> > clavoscopist
> > > > to prove the affirmative" This is tantamount to
> > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent. Guilty
> > until
> > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> > delusional...
> > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as of 1978,
> > cast
> > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need to dress
> > up
> > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > >
> > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ah but now you appear to be deliberately
> > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting what i
> > actually
> > > > > said & did
> > > > >
> > > > > my questioning what you believe & claim exists
> >
> > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone has
> > seen any
> > > > > evidence
> > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter of a
> > century
> > > > > for starters
> > > > > is not the same as assuming it no longer
> > exists
> > > > >
> > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > >
> > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > you are not even close on any of the above
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > but only your specific self delusions about me
> > & it
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > & such is the grandeur of your delusions that
> > you
> > > > > are even
> > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > >
> > > > > but i just dont share any of this sense with
> > you in
> > > > > common
> > > > >
> > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> > confidence in
> > > > > any of
> > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > >
> > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you go
> > > > >
> > > > > a map
> > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > like all other data
> > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > but are always selective & necessarily partial
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > as well as dated
> > > > >
> > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > >
> > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent could be the
> > > > > mother of all
> > > > > delusion
> > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common sense. The
> > maps
> > > > > and
> > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in 1978.
> > The
> > > > > claves
> > > > > > were left as they were. You can't just
> > assume
> > > > > > something goes away because you yourself
> > want it
> > > > > to go
> > > > > > away. What real evidence do you have saying
> > they
> > > > > no
> > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say that the
> > other
> > > > > 4
> > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either because they
> > > > > haven't
> > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of the last
> > map
> > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> > (hypothetically),
> > > > > does
> > > > > > that mean we should question whether they've
> > > > > existed
> > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your afterword
> > here
> > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do indeed move
> > about
> > > > > etc
> > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> > supposedly
> > > > > true at
> > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > they were last visited &or reported etc
> > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you about the
> > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit of
> > reporting on
> > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & you have proved these particular crumbs
> > > > > existed
> > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> > questionable
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > however unworth questioning just to reduce
> > by 2
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > during which i still do believe they
> > havent been
> > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & in the meantime whole governments &
> > nation
> > > > > states
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several times all
> > thru
> > > > > there
> > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize & mention
> > all the
> > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves but have
> > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at least 26
> > of
> > > > > these
> > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so i am content to believe them real as of
> > 1976
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > & looking forward to more & fresher data
> > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> > provides it
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & i have just been responding to your
> > claim in
> > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had them but
> > i
> > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > Michael
> > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint could
> > have
> > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers just
> > didn't
> > > > > know
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could have
> > moved (or
> > > > > even
> > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just that it
> > wasn't
> > > > > shown
> > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown or said
> > it
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that it was
> > or
> > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring clavoscopist
> > to be
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the cartographers
> > knew
> > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew or wrote
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown or said
> > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a fact
> > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any specific
> > inkling
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt & wouldnt
> > have
> > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have just
> > scrawled a
> > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us know in
> > that
> > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they redraw
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple overprint
> > was
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would likely have
> > added
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no longer
> > existed. I
> > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of the map
> > for such
> > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > > >
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