Regarding the photos at
http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig03b.jpg
and
http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/vaticano/fig03a.jpg ,
Mike wrote:
> i believe they look toward the same column of the same
> propylaeum from opposite directions
> but i believe the photo in fig03b was taken while the
> photographer was standing on the steps of the propylaeum
> with its north column behind him
> rather than looking toward the entire propylaeum from the steps
> of the narrower portion of the colonnade to its north
> so i believe the steps in the photo are those of the propylaeum
Please study the attached rare broadside view of the north colonnade's terminal
propylaeum (which is cropped out of a 1.6 MB panorama of the square by Jorgen
Stadje at
http://www.qedata.se/bilder/panoramor/petersplatsen.jpg ).
You will see that there is no set-back line of columns within the propylaeum.
You can see clear through to the arched entrance on the Mussolini-era building
in Italy. The photo in Fig. 3b shows two round and one square set-back columns.
Therefore, these must necessarily be in the narrower colonnade north of the
propylaeum. What appears in Figs. 3a and 3b to be only one round set-out column
must be both of those of the propylaeum aligned. Furthermore, it appears to me
in the attached picture that the propylaeum lacks the steps that are found along
the inner margin of the narrower colonnade.
Apart from the exceptions detailed above, I find the remainder of Mike's Vatican
credo credible.
Lowell G. McManus
Leesville, Louisiana, USA
also
as you indicate below
the steps leading to the narrower portion may even have been
paved over
tho
as mentioned previously
i am not at all sure of this detail
nor of its significance with regard to itva
> and they show
> that the outer edge of the travertine strip aligns with the outer
edges of the
> columnar plinths, ignoring the projection of the propylaeum.
The author
> believes that the outer edge of the plinths was intended by the
treaty, because
> the external steps were paved over in contemporary photos.
>
> In his words:
>
> Il terzo comma definisce territorio vaticano la zona all'interno
del bordo
> esterno dei bracci del Colonnato Berniniano e loro
prolungamento. Si parla di
> linee esterne non specificando bene cosa siano. L'unico
modo per capirne il
> significato è quello di conoscere la situazione del Colonnato a
quell'epoca: il
> livello della strada arrivava, in base a foto dell'epoca, alla base
del plinto
> delle colonne. Ciò giustifica la linea continua della pianta
dell'Allegato I.
>
> Il lastricato di travertino che segna il confine, largo circa 0.60
m, è in
> corrispondenza del filare dei plinti delle colonne esterne del
Colonnato, mentre
> la planimetria firmata in Commissione non evidenzia
nemmeno i due propilei
> confermandone l'esclusione per quelli verso l'Italia.
this is why i believe the author has taken at least this detail of the
lateran map too literally
of course this map doesnt show the propylaea
for it isnt detailed enough to show them nor any of the 8 similar
projections from the basic colonnades either
nor does it show very much other fine detail anywhere else on
the itva border that it so crudely yet still very effectively indicates
& it is therefore
as i believe
only a delimitation sketch rather than a precise delineation map
to understand the intended & i believe actual legal delineation
i believe it is necessary to return again to the essence of the deal
which was to at least keep all the structures wholly holy
& then to let whatever other lines are necessary connect these
however i am looking forward to learning the new possible
exception to this principle
as just suggested by mats
> Correndo la linea di confine lungo il lato esterno del plinto
delle colonne
> del filare esterno, vengono a trovarsi in territorio italiano le
colonne dei
> propilei del Colonnato rivolte verso Via della Conciliazione, il
cornicione e
> gli scalini esterni.
>
> In this interpretation, the author applies the treaty's
specification of "the
> external edge of the arms of the Bernini Colonnade and their
prolongation" very
> literally to the columns themselves, leaving the steps, the
cornice, and the
> propylaea in Italy. On the other hand, who is to say that the
term "colonnade"
> does not refer to the entire architectural structure, with all of its
> intricacies?
right
& i believe there is actually good reason to agree with the author
about where the travertine sector of itva terminates
but also good reason to disagree with him about exactly which
feature or features the architectural sector of itva follows
>The fact that the steps were paved over as of 1929 does not
remove
> them from the structure if Gianlorenzo Bernini put them there in
the 17th
> century. Likewise, the fact that the travertine strip (assuming
that Bernini
> put it there too) aligns with the plinths and not with the steps,
the cornice,
> or the propylaea proves nothing about the location of the
boundary about these
> other features. After all, the talented Mr. Bernini had no idea
that he was
> designing a future international boundary. If he had, he might
have made it
> smoother.
hahaha
right
with such exquisite smoothness
he only believed he was delimiting the sacred from the profane
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
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