I have inserted my thoughts at appropriate places below:
Lowell G. McManus
Leesville, Louisiana, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "acroorca2002" <orc@...>
To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:06 AM
Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: a funny thing keeps happening on the way to menhus
> well & maybe i will nibble a quibble with you here too
> just to keep things light
>
> for tho the confusions are similar
> your njny had previously been definitely delineated in favor of nj
You are correct that there was an existing interstate compact at NJNY. My
analogy was based on New York's reliance on federal bureaucratic indifference
and the doctrine of presecrption/acquiescence in its quest for the Ellis Island
extensions.
> so there was really nothing for the supremes to adjudge there
> but only an old agreement to revisit
> hence that ridiculous & deliciously minute outcome on ellis
> island
> whereas
> our menh here around seavey island has previously only been
> indefinitely defined in favor of me
> meaning maine
>
> so
>
> unless i am mistaken
> & i know it happens
> hahaha
>
> either the states plus congress or else the supremes are
> imminently forced into motion
> to create an original definition for this still indefinite delineation
> & thus settle for the first time an already historic original
> confusion
I think that they have a delineation already in the form of George II's "Middle
of the River." What lacks is any demarcation. Of course, an interstate compact
ratified by the Congress could redelineate or even reallocate. The two states
themselves could demarcate and ratify a survey based on the existing delineation
without asking anybody, but that would take two willing states. More likely,
the Supremes would order a demarcation based on either a special master's
findings or a consent decree (as was the case in the incomplete lateral boundary
a few years ago). Right now, though, the case is not even into federal courts.
Mr. Bourre is a resident of New Hampshire who disputes Maine's right to tax his
former paycheck at the naval base. As I understand it, Maine has its own
administrative tax judgement against him, but he has no Maine assets to be
seized. Therefore, Maine is pursuing him in New Hampshire courts to get the
judgement enforced. If that doesn't happen, because New Hampshire law prohibits
its courts from enforcing any other state's taxes at the naval base, then Maine
would have to sue New Hampshire in the federal courts asking for its rights
under the "full faith and credit" clause of Article IV. The Supreme Court would
have original jurisdiction. If that is the question, Maine will win. If New
Hampshire were to assert, in its response to the suit, that Seavey Island is not
in Maine, only then would the boundary through the harbor become an issue before
the Supremes.
>
>
>
> & but does this even matter to the ultimate definition of menhus
> you may fairly wonder
>
> for it is always well to ask of all offerings here
> what do they have to do with anything anyway
>
> & did they in fact reach even the general neighborhood of even
> the broad side of our bp barn
>
>
>
>
>
> & i say yes i think it may matter
> especially if we think it may
> but i admit this one is a tossup
>
> for the pols &or the supremes could well settle the entire
> piscataqua controversy without ever glancing beyond the
> breakwater at gosport
>
> in fact i wouldnt put it past them
I agree. The Supremes' policy is not to decide issues that are not before them.
There is no way that the question of the boundary beyond the breakwater would be
reached by a suit brought to enforce Maine income taxes on Mr. Bourre and the
1,800 other New Hampshire residents similarly situated. The only hope for
getting a firm MENHUS out of this case would be if the prospect of an adverse
ruling would stampede New Hampshire into consenting to a preemptive joint
demarcation that might include both of the boundary segments that are still
flapping. Since income taxes are involved, this might be politically unpopular
in anti-tax New Hampshire.
[End of insertions.]
>
>
> so
> pending all these various & mostly inevitable outcomes
> i am preparing to order the nautical chart & run the equidistance
> line myself out to the 3mile limits
> between the scatterings of outer rocks & islets that can already
> be foreseen on this nonnavigational chart
> http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=42.971&lon=-70.605
> especially if you select the large map size
>
>
> & then afterwards
> the 100k topo series at 250k map scale
> to see the limits that will need to be reached by their original or
> my hypothetical delineation
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079"
> <barbaria_longa@h...> wrote:
> > excellent analysis
> >
> > & of course it was multi wishfully thought from the start here
> too
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
> > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > I agree that the boundary through Portsmouth Harbor in the
> > wide mouth of the
> > > Piscataqua River lacks proper demarcation, but any fair
> > interpretation of the
> > > 1740 royal decree's "Middle of the River" would have to leave
> > the naval base on
> > > Seavey Island in Maine. There's no comparison between the
> > wide, deep channel
> > > south of the island and the narrow, shallow, and twice
> bridged
> > channel north of
> > > the island. Just look at the soundings on the topo map!
> > >
> > > New Hampshire's previous claim to the low water line on the
> > north shore (shot
> > > down by the Supremes in 2001 without telling us where the
> > boundary really is)
> > > was clearly based on something other than the
> > aforementioned order of George II
> > > in council--namely prescription and acquiescence.
> > >
> > > I suspect that the comedian from Dover, New Hampshire,
> who
> > wishes to avoid Maine
> > > income taxes on his earnings at the naval yard, is going to
> say:
> > >
> > > "Well, you know, Maine (and Massachusetts before it) were in
> > past times rather
> > > lax in asserting their sovereignty over Seavey Island, and the
> > feds were
> > > perennially confused as to the postal address for the naval
> > base, so that puts
> > > it in tax-free New Hampshire!"
> > >
> > > I seem to recall that a long history of federal involvement that
> > was oblivious
> > > to the presence of any state boundary, coupled with extended
> > neglect by New
> > > Jersey, did not avail New York any more of Ellis Island than
> > Charles II had
> > > granted to the Duke of York in 1664. I suspect that the
> > Supremes will rule this
> > > time as they did then.
> > >
> > > I don't blame Mr. Bourre for pointing out that the boundary is
> > uncertain and
> > > bringing the issue to a head; but in the meantime, I'd advise
> > him to set aside
> > > the money that Maine wants. Anything else would be wishful
> > thinking.
> > >
> > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "m06079" <barbaria_longa@h...>
> > > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:30 AM
> > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: a funny thing keeps happening
> on
> > the way to menhus
> > >
> > >
> > > > the legal briefs behind the tax revolt bravura
> > > > http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/130ORIG.ZS.html
> > > >
> > > > & tho the usgs topo does indeed place seavey island
> > shipyard
> > > > squarely within maine
> > > > http://topozone.com/map.asp?lat=43.08083&lon=-70.735
> > > > if you zoom out & pan around from there
> > > > especially toward the south
> > > > you will find clear signs of the border uncertainty &or
> conflict
> > that
> > > > does indeed prevail thruout this area
> > > >
> > > > which btw is also the cause & general area of the police
> > condo
> > > > tho i still cant positively identify its tripoints or true extent
> > > >
> > > > & the uncertainty of all the above is just the result of not
> > knowing
> > > > which interpretation to honor of the legal delineation
> > > > namely
> > > > the middle of the river
> > > > or the main navigation channel
> > > > or whatever
> > > >
> > > > but especially wherever islands such as this one are
> > concerned
> > > >
> > > > & thats the question that is probably headed back to the
> > > > supreme court right now with our comedian friend here
> > > > one way or the other
> > > >
> > > > & we
> > > > the precision try pointers of the world
> > > > well we can only stand by hoping the court will have the
> good
> > > > sense to take this opportunity to secure the entire menh
> > border
> > > > from ever blowing in the wind again
> > > > & therefore to pin it down all the way to menhus
> > > >
> > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
> > > > <orc@o...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/03162004/news/5522.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079"
> > > > > <barbaria_longa@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > ah so
> > > > > > already plumbed your well to a happy ending too i trust
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & to review & summarize what else of relevance we
> have
> > > > been
> > > > > > seeing here on menh in recent years
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > this man is just the van & tip of a rising iceberg of tax
> > revolt by
> > > > > > portsmouth shipyard workers resident in maine
> > > > > > which has been bringing this ill defined border to a
> > political
> > > > > head
> > > > > > over many months now
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2
> > > > > > believe it or not
> > > > > > the unresolved legal issues are pretty much as stated
> in
> > the
> > > > > > article
> > > > > > as i understand them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so this boor fellow may really know whereof he boasts
> > > > > >
> > > > > > in fact i would bet this mess is more than ripe enough
> to
> > rise
> > > > > > straight to the supreme court again
> > > > > > unless they nip it in the bud with an instant border
> > > > commission
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & that is something they appear to have been
> > assiduously
> > > > > > avoiding
> > > > > > unlike our wild & crazy ctri messers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3
> > > > > > pro tempore
> > > > > > there is a de facto police condominium of the busiest
> > areas
> > > > of
> > > > > > the piscataqua harbor area
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > & 4
> > > > > > as you probably also know
> > > > > > & as has already come up in this case
> > > > > > even an official map does not necessarily define a
> border
> > > > > > nor dispose of a dispute
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G.
> > > > McManus"
> > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > I hope that this does lead to a clarification of
> MENHUS,
> > but I
> > > > > > don't think the
> > > > > > > fellow has much of a chance with his tax case. I have
> a
> > > > > "1977
> > > > > > Official Highway
> > > > > > > Map of New Hampshire" issued by the New
> Hampshire
> > > > > > Division of Economic
> > > > > > > Development that clearly shows (in its Portsmouth
> > inset)
> > > > that
> > > > > > the Portsmouth
> > > > > > > Naval Shipyard is in Maine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Michael Donner" <barbaria_longa@h...>
> > > > > > > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:31 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] a funny thing keeps
> > happening on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > way to menhus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this one ought to spawn a whole new menh border
> > > > > > commission &or supreme court
> > > > > > > > culmination
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/03152004/news/5417.htm
> > > > > > > > & put an end to both of the outstanding menh
> > enigmas
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this famously convoluted & urgent one in
> piscataqua
> > > > > harbor
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > the forgotten
> > > > > > > > & indeed practically esoteric
> > > > > > > > final stitch
> > > > > > > > from the breakwater at the isles of shoals to the
> 3mile
> > > > > limits
> > > > > > at menhus
> > > > > > > > aka mes
> > > > > > > > aka nhe
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & the gathering legal storm should lead to the
> > resolution
> > > > of
> > > > > > both areas &
> > > > > > > > thus to the tripoint
> > > > > > > > which is still technically flapping in the wind
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
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