just one insertion below
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
<mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> I have inserted my thoughts at appropriate places below:
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "acroorca2002" <orc@o...>
> To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:06 AM
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: a funny thing keeps happening on
the way to menhus
>
>
> > well & maybe i will nibble a quibble with you here too
> > just to keep things light
> >
> > for tho the confusions are similar
> > your njny had previously been definitely delineated in favor of
nj
>
> You are correct that there was an existing interstate compact at
NJNY. My
> analogy was based on New York's reliance on federal
bureaucratic indifference
> and the doctrine of presecrption/acquiescence in its quest for
the Ellis Island
> extensions.
>
> > so there was really nothing for the supremes to adjudge
there
> > but only an old agreement to revisit
> > hence that ridiculous & deliciously minute outcome on ellis
> > island
> > whereas
> > our menh here around seavey island has previously only
been
> > indefinitely defined in favor of me
> > meaning maine
> >
> > so
> >
> > unless i am mistaken
> > & i know it happens
> > hahaha
> >
> > either the states plus congress or else the supremes are
> > imminently forced into motion
> > to create an original definition for this still indefinite
delineation
> > & thus settle for the first time an already historic original
> > confusion
>
> I think that they have a delineation already in the form of
George II's "Middle
> of the River."
yes but i would stress the indefiniteness of this delineation
for it is just a vaguely worded description
& highly subject to various interpretations in its present form
& thus not at all a precise geographic delineation yet
& we are familiar with this particular phrase
the middle of the river
as a classic recipe for difference & dispute wherever islands are
involved
but i doubt demarcation is necessarily the next step
or need be any step at all
in resolving this particular dispute
of course direct &or indirect riverine demarcation are always
options
but apart from occasional individual terminal & witness rocks etc
we have seen these options used very sparingly within the usa
in sharp contrast with their use on international boundaries
in fact only 3 cases come to mind
azca nmtx & orwa
& i also think it is too late for simple allocation of the islands
which might have been fine for the 17th or 18th centuries
but an exact state line is what is needed now & what should
emerge somehow
so i believe the next step needs rather to be a refinement in the
definition of the delineation
or what you may also be calling redelineation here below
whether done by the states or the supremes
for i am not sure which way nor how this will proceed from here
but we do know that the court decision expected later this month
is expected to be appealed either way
& thus to set something further into motion soon
if the dispute gets resolved by an interstate compact
rather than a supreme court decision
then i agree that would give us the far better hope of a
comprehensive settlement & thus of an early menhus
but i also agree a compact is far less likely than a supreme court
test
so that probably leads me back to doing menhus myself
with the navigational chart
which would probably be more fun anyway
end of insertions
What lacks is any demarcation. Of course, an interstate compact
> ratified by the Congress could redelineate or even reallocate.
The two states
> themselves could demarcate and ratify a survey based on the
existing delineation
> without asking anybody, but that would take two willing states.
More likely,
> the Supremes would order a demarcation based on either a
special master's
> findings or a consent decree (as was the case in the
incomplete lateral boundary
> a few years ago). Right now, though, the case is not even into
federal courts.
>
> Mr. Bourre is a resident of New Hampshire who disputes
Maine's right to tax his
> former paycheck at the naval base. As I understand it, Maine
has its own
> administrative tax judgement against him, but he has no Maine
assets to be
> seized. Therefore, Maine is pursuing him in New Hampshire
courts to get the
> judgement enforced. If that doesn't happen, because New
Hampshire law prohibits
> its courts from enforcing any other state's taxes at the naval
base, then Maine
> would have to sue New Hampshire in the federal courts asking
for its rights
> under the "full faith and credit" clause of Article IV. The
Supreme Court would
> have original jurisdiction. If that is the question, Maine will win.
If New
> Hampshire were to assert, in its response to the suit, that
Seavey Island is not
> in Maine, only then would the boundary through the harbor
become an issue before
> the Supremes.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > & but does this even matter to the ultimate definition of
menhus
> > you may fairly wonder
> >
> > for it is always well to ask of all offerings here
> > what do they have to do with anything anyway
> >
> > & did they in fact reach even the general neighborhood of
even
> > the broad side of our bp barn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > & i say yes i think it may matter
> > especially if we think it may
> > but i admit this one is a tossup
> >
> > for the pols &or the supremes could well settle the entire
> > piscataqua controversy without ever glancing beyond the
> > breakwater at gosport
> >
> > in fact i wouldnt put it past them
>
> I agree. The Supremes' policy is not to decide issues that are
not before them.
> There is no way that the question of the boundary beyond the
breakwater would be
> reached by a suit brought to enforce Maine income taxes on Mr.
Bourre and the
> 1,800 other New Hampshire residents similarly situated. The
only hope for
> getting a firm MENHUS out of this case would be if the
prospect of an adverse
> ruling would stampede New Hampshire into consenting to a
preemptive joint
> demarcation that might include both of the boundary segments
that are still
> flapping. Since income taxes are involved, this might be
politically unpopular
> in anti-tax New Hampshire.
>
> [End of insertions.]
>
> >
> >
> > so
> > pending all these various & mostly inevitable outcomes
> > i am preparing to order the nautical chart & run the
equidistance
> > line myself out to the 3mile limits
> > between the scatterings of outer rocks & islets that can
already
> > be foreseen on this nonnavigational chart
> > http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=42.971&lon=-70.605
> > especially if you select the large map size
> >
> >
> > & then afterwards
> > the 100k topo series at 250k map scale
> > to see the limits that will need to be reached by their original
or
> > my hypothetical delineation
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079"
> > <barbaria_longa@h...> wrote:
> > > excellent analysis
> > >
> > > & of course it was multi wishfully thought from the start
here
> > too
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G.
McManus"
> > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > I agree that the boundary through Portsmouth Harbor in
the
> > > wide mouth of the
> > > > Piscataqua River lacks proper demarcation, but any fair
> > > interpretation of the
> > > > 1740 royal decree's "Middle of the River" would have to
leave
> > > the naval base on
> > > > Seavey Island in Maine. There's no comparison between
the
> > > wide, deep channel
> > > > south of the island and the narrow, shallow, and twice
> > bridged
> > > channel north of
> > > > the island. Just look at the soundings on the topo map!
> > > >
> > > > New Hampshire's previous claim to the low water line on
the
> > > north shore (shot
> > > > down by the Supremes in 2001 without telling us where
the
> > > boundary really is)
> > > > was clearly based on something other than the
> > > aforementioned order of George II
> > > > in council--namely prescription and acquiescence.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that the comedian from Dover, New Hampshire,
> > who
> > > wishes to avoid Maine
> > > > income taxes on his earnings at the naval yard, is going
to
> > say:
> > > >
> > > > "Well, you know, Maine (and Massachusetts before it)
were in
> > > past times rather
> > > > lax in asserting their sovereignty over Seavey Island, and
the
> > > feds were
> > > > perennially confused as to the postal address for the
naval
> > > base, so that puts
> > > > it in tax-free New Hampshire!"
> > > >
> > > > I seem to recall that a long history of federal involvement
that
> > > was oblivious
> > > > to the presence of any state boundary, coupled with
extended
> > > neglect by New
> > > > Jersey, did not avail New York any more of Ellis Island
than
> > > Charles II had
> > > > granted to the Duke of York in 1664. I suspect that the
> > > Supremes will rule this
> > > > time as they did then.
> > > >
> > > > I don't blame Mr. Bourre for pointing out that the boundary
is
> > > uncertain and
> > > > bringing the issue to a head; but in the meantime, I'd
advise
> > > him to set aside
> > > > the money that Maine wants. Anything else would be
wishful
> > > thinking.
> > > >
> > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "m06079" <barbaria_longa@h...>
> > > > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 11:30 AM
> > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: a funny thing keeps
happening
> > on
> > > the way to menhus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > the legal briefs behind the tax revolt bravura
> > > > >
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/130ORIG.ZS.html
> > > > >
> > > > > & tho the usgs topo does indeed place seavey island
> > > shipyard
> > > > > squarely within maine
> > > > >
http://topozone.com/map.asp?lat=43.08083&lon=-70.735
> > > > > if you zoom out & pan around from there
> > > > > especially toward the south
> > > > > you will find clear signs of the border uncertainty &or
> > conflict
> > > that
> > > > > does indeed prevail thruout this area
> > > > >
> > > > > which btw is also the cause & general area of the
police
> > > condo
> > > > > tho i still cant positively identify its tripoints or true extent
> > > > >
> > > > > & the uncertainty of all the above is just the result of not
> > > knowing
> > > > > which interpretation to honor of the legal delineation
> > > > > namely
> > > > > the middle of the river
> > > > > or the main navigation channel
> > > > > or whatever
> > > > >
> > > > > but especially wherever islands such as this one are
> > > concerned
> > > > >
> > > > > & thats the question that is probably headed back to the
> > > > > supreme court right now with our comedian friend here
> > > > > one way or the other
> > > > >
> > > > > & we
> > > > > the precision try pointers of the world
> > > > > well we can only stand by hoping the court will have the
> > good
> > > > > sense to take this opportunity to secure the entire menh
> > > border
> > > > > from ever blowing in the wind again
> > > > > & therefore to pin it down all the way to menhus
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
"acroorca2002"
> > > > > <orc@o...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/03162004/news/5522.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "m06079"
> > > > > > <barbaria_longa@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > > ah so
> > > > > > > already plumbed your well to a happy ending too i
trust
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & to review & summarize what else of relevance we
> > have
> > > > > been
> > > > > > > seeing here on menh in recent years
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > this man is just the van & tip of a rising iceberg of
tax
> > > revolt by
> > > > > > > portsmouth shipyard workers resident in maine
> > > > > > > which has been bringing this ill defined border to a
> > > political
> > > > > > head
> > > > > > > over many months now
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2
> > > > > > > believe it or not
> > > > > > > the unresolved legal issues are pretty much as
stated
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > > > article
> > > > > > > as i understand them
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so this boor fellow may really know whereof he
boasts
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > in fact i would bet this mess is more than ripe
enough
> > to
> > > rise
> > > > > > > straight to the supreme court again
> > > > > > > unless they nip it in the bud with an instant border
> > > > > commission
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & that is something they appear to have been
> > > assiduously
> > > > > > > avoiding
> > > > > > > unlike our wild & crazy ctri messers
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3
> > > > > > > pro tempore
> > > > > > > there is a de facto police condominium of the
busiest
> > > areas
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > the piscataqua harbor area
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > & 4
> > > > > > > as you probably also know
> > > > > > > & as has already come up in this case
> > > > > > > even an official map does not necessarily define a
> > border
> > > > > > > nor dispose of a dispute
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G.
> > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > I hope that this does lead to a clarification of
> > MENHUS,
> > > but I
> > > > > > > don't think the
> > > > > > > > fellow has much of a chance with his tax case. I
have
> > a
> > > > > > "1977
> > > > > > > Official Highway
> > > > > > > > Map of New Hampshire" issued by the New
> > Hampshire
> > > > > > > Division of Economic
> > > > > > > > Development that clearly shows (in its
Portsmouth
> > > inset)
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > the Portsmouth
> > > > > > > > Naval Shipyard is in Maine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Michael Donner" <barbaria_longa@h...>
> > > > > > > > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 1:31 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] a funny thing keeps
> > > happening on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > way to menhus
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > this one ought to spawn a whole new menh
border
> > > > > > > commission &or supreme court
> > > > > > > > > culmination
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/03152004/news/5417.htm
> > > > > > > > > & put an end to both of the outstanding menh
> > > enigmas
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > this famously convoluted & urgent one in
> > piscataqua
> > > > > > harbor
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > &
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > the forgotten
> > > > > > > > > & indeed practically esoteric
> > > > > > > > > final stitch
> > > > > > > > > from the breakwater at the isles of shoals to the
> > 3mile
> > > > > > limits
> > > > > > > at menhus
> > > > > > > > > aka mes
> > > > > > > > > aka nhe
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > & the gathering legal storm should lead to the
> > > resolution
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > both areas &
> > > > > > > > > thus to the tripoint
> > > > > > > > > which is still technically flapping in the wind
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
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