Yes, the term "Vatican City State" is undoubtedly redundant in this case, but
the official name of the political entity is "Stato della Cittá del Vaticano."
That's why I called it the State of the Vatican City.
I've done a bit of research on the difference between the Vatican City and the
Holy See. The Holy See (nothing more nor less than the institution of the
Papacy itself) has claimed sovereignty for a very long time (because it
considered itself above the laws of mere countries), and it once ruled extensive
territories as what we could call a real country. When it lost the last of
those territories in 1870, it continued to function as a landless sovereign
entity (very much like the current status of SMOM), conducting diplomacy and
making treaties with Catholic nations as if nothing had happened. When
Mussolini restored its territorial sovereignty over the Church's premises on the
Vatican Hill in Rome, the current political state of Vatican City came into
being as a country. Its flag differs slightly from that of the Holy See in that
the positions of the gold and silver keys are swapped. Why, then, do the USA,
some other countries not primarily Catholic, and some not even Christian
recognize and conduct diplomatic relations with the Holy See rather than with
the Stato della Cittá del Vaticano? It is because the latter refuses to conduct
diplomacy, referring all such matters to the Holy See--thus to prop up the
Papacy's claim to sovereignty apart from whatever territorial jurisdiction(s) it
might have in any given century.
Lowell G. McManus
Leesville, Louisiana, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "m06079" <barbaria_longa@...>
To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:04 AM
Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Shortest border??
> nice question
>
> & responding not as a religionist but only a devout philologist
> i can report that the vatican hill of rome was the original seat of
> etruscan divination & prophecy
>
> so the prechristian vatinicity of the vatican locality may predate its
> christian pontificity by a good millennium or so
>
> & from early roman times
> the pontifex maximus
> aka the greatest bridge maker & prechristian pontiff of rome
> who traditionally held the spot
> channeled the divine will there
> as if he were an aqueduct from heaven to earth
>
> & the term city in vatican city
> which came only much later
> is really just the word for a political state rather than anything
> resembling an actual urbopolis per se
>
> in real terms the vatican may have been & may still be a town or
> village state
> but i dont believe it was ever an actual city state
>
> so the other alternative term vatican city state is surely redundant
>
> indeed the vatican is the worlds only state without a city
> as well as within a city
>
>
> & the see of the holy see means seat too
> but in this case quite literally
> the holy throne
> aka cathedra
> & by extension the heavenly court
> the divine authority of the pope
> the original jurisdiction of all sovereignty
> & a major source btw of the divine right of kings scam
> upon which our modern concept of national sovereignty &
> countryhood is based
>
>
> it is understandable that the throne & its occupant would have a
> different vexillology than the state
> & there may well be a diplomatic nuance depending on which of
> them is actually recognized & treated with
> but the terms vatican city & holy see
> so far as i can see
> & notwithstanding all these various shades of technical meaning
> owing to all the twisted semantics & history & politics alike
> are nevertheless widely taken to be synonymous
> as a simple google search also makes clear
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus"
> <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > Mike wrote:
> >
> > > plus i think perhaps only the holy see & taiwan as special
> cases...
> >
> > While I'm certain that the State of the Vatican City is a country, I
> think there
> > is some difference between it and the Holy See. I know that
> they have slightly
> > different flags, and I think that the Holy See is not a country. On
> the other
> > hand, I know that the USA exchanges diplomats with the Holy
> See, but not with
> > Vatican City, for some inexplicable reason.
> >
> > That's all I know, but it's probably not meant to be understood
> by
> > Congregational Methodists such as I. Perhaps some Roman
> Catholic among us can
> > explain it better.
> >
> > Lowell G. McManus
> > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
>
>
>
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