Subject: Re: search for germany benelux river condos advances
Date: Apr 20, 2001 @ 07:50
Author: peter.smaardijk@and.com (peter.smaardijk@...)
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> greatair
> this is hot
> & it sure looks like you have caught the territorial changes in mid
>parcels
> for whatever grundstuecken may actually mean
> it could well have been referring here to the historically dry land
> that became submerged by the damnew reality
> & thus already practically transferred by nature to the condo area
> while the new treaty & laws might have merely been confirming this
> since it would have been much harder if not impossible to deny &resist it
> anywayI didn't think of this possibility yet, but it sounds very reasonable.
>
> imagine the alternativenationality
> a navigable waterway made condo for convenience in the first place
> now comprising 3 stripes of water with 3 different statuses of
>pickwick
> a likely reason too for the difference between this bassin &
>typical of
>
> as for the islands
> the befrlu aerial photo from jesper in message 1235 is likely
> islands within the condovianden
> so i would like to just count them all in at least provisionally
>
>
> alternatively or additionally
> this leaves that peculiar left bank territory of luxembourg around
> to also marvel athistorically
> the unique exception to & break in the delu condo
>
> not knowing its history
> i can only wonder if it was a result of the dam
> say
> a necessary expedient for bypassing the dam & leaving it entirely in
> luxembourg for some reason i cant say
>
> but its high ground also suggests it might hold a castle that
> belonged to or dominated viandenthe dam
> so this strange exception could just as easily have long predated
>interesting
> thus all the more reason the data you are seeking here will be
>parcels
> for unless we find an old map that could also settle this question
> there is a possibility that the grundstuecken referred to are the
> of this left bank territoryI'm absolutely positive the Vianden boundary detour precedes the
>
> m
>territory
>
> >
> >In
>
><http://www.salomonia.com/Bundesrecht/verlauf_gemeinsame_staatsgrenzeG/verlauf_
> >gemeinsame_staatsgrenze-text.htm>
>
>http://www.salomonia.com/Bundesrecht/verlauf_gemeinsame_staatsgrenzeG/verlauf_ge
> >meinsame_staatsgrenze-text.htm
> >(the law that puts the 1984 treaty into force), there is talk of
> >Grundstuecken (parcels of land), that have to be taken out of the
> >German land register, because they are situated within the
> >of joint sovereignty as defined in the treaty (art. 3 (1) 2 and 3(1)
> >3). This is the first time I see some proof of dry pieces of thison
> >condominium in print (although I think I can see some tiny islands
> >the 1:20k map of Vianden and surroundings that fall in between theis
> >boundaries along the river banks as well). Unless "Grundstuecken"
> >German legalese for parcels of anything, including water. Cansomebody
> >enlighten me on that? And can someone come up with the text of thisthe
> >treaty? So far, I've been unable to find it.
> >
> >Peter S.
> >
> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> >> profuse thanxxx peter
> >>
> >> this all feels great
> >>
> >> & i agree about monuments 19 & 47
> >> for now i can envision them marking dedelulu condo tripoints on
> >leftthe
> >> bank of the river & dam lake respectively
> >> if i understand you correctly
> >> & thus i would also expect them to have condo terminus mates on
> >> respective right banks more or less directly oppositedelulu
> >> but the mates will in that case just be marking points on the
> >lineriverine
> >> rather than tripoints
> >>
> >> in other words no trilines around vianden as at befrlu & bedelu
> >>
> >>
> >> also
> >> while looking forward to your further comments on bedelu
> >>
> >> considering the narrowness of the river condo there
> >> & assuming it even persists that far upriver
> >> which i do assume now based on your new info
> >> & pending any more details
> >> & considering also the shortness & interruptedness of the
> >sectorssectors
> >> of the bede boundary continuing up the ours from bedelu
> >> i would venture to guess we will not find any bede river condos
> >anywhere
> >> but only a single linear bede boundary from bedelu to bedenl
> >> & would douse the hope i once had of a bicondo quadripoint at
> >bedelu
> >>
> >> also
> >> just to fully embrace the benelux try again
> >> considering the shortness & interruptedness of the riverine
> >of thethat
> >> denl boundary
> >> i would also venture to guess a single linear boundary again in
> >casealong
> >> except just possibly for a condo on the rhine sector
> >>
> >>
> >> but beyond that
> >> since you bring word now of a more pervasive river condo culture
> >than might
> >> be indicated by just the 2 or 4 positive finds you have made
> >the esfrother
> >> & delu frontiers
> >> especially with the account of that wonderful sanctuary ferry
> >custom
> >> it seems worth staying alert now to the possibility of finding
> >> surviving river condos on other european boundaries than justthese
> >>message
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> ps
> >> it seems almost a necessity that river condos keep moving with a
> >changing
> >> river
> >> but a luxury & a rarity when simple riverine boundary lines do
> >>
> >> i think vianden is odder for the boundary detour than the condo
> >expansion
> >>
> >>
> >> also
> >> the 1263 breakthru by peter you mentioned was building since
> >293now
> >> tho the companion suggestion in that message re atchde has
> >probably been
> >> busted by gideon
> >> so this particular search you have so beautifully advanced again
> >is athen
> >> terrific survivor
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., michael donner <m@d...> wrote:
> >> >> still working in the dark for lack of an 1815 treaty of vienna
> >text
> >> >> & still clueless also about any later international agreements
> >that
> >> >could
> >> >> have affected the river condo or condos originally created
> >> >>defrlu
> >> >> but a lucky catch at
> >> >> <<http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
> >>http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
> >> >><http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html>
> >>http://www.luxembourg.co.uk/fish_border.html
> >> >> makes the delu river condo on the moselle at schengen aka
> >> >> which several members have already pointed out with pix &maps
> >> >> seem likely to continue northwardbedelu
> >> >> first all the way down the moselle to wasserbillig
> >> >> & from there all the way up the tributary river sauer to
> >wallendorf
> >> >> & finally all the way up its tributary river the our to
> >> >> except in this last case for a very short stretch aroundvianden
> >> >where theinto
> >> >> delu boundary leaves the river our
> >> >>
> >> >> this single detour breaks the possible river condo territory
> >> >twoprocess
> >> >> separate pieces
> >> >> & may produce a pair of riparian condo tripoints in the
> >> >> one just southeast & the other just north of viandenVianden
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >It looks like you're right. I have a 1:20k map here of the
> >> >area, and the points where the border leaves the river Our areat
> >> >boundary marker 47 (north of Vianden) and boundary marker 19(south
> >ofat
> >> >Vianden). These boundary markers are likely to be pairs, one on
> >each
> >> >bank. Moreover, because of the large width of the river north of
> >> >Vianden (it is the Bassin Inferieur lake formed by the river dam
> >> >Vianden), the boundaries are clearly depicted as following bothit
> >banks,
> >> >thus leaving the condominium in the middle. I find it strange
> >> >(although understandable) that the border obviously changed,
> >because
> >> >the lake certainly wasn't there in 1815, and the borders are
> >following
> >> >the lake shore lines. This is unlike the US example (I believe
> >wasthrough
> >> >in Tennessee) mentioned in this group a couple of days ago.
> >Normally,
> >> >a boundary stays the same, even if a river changes its course,
> >unless
> >> >a new boundary is negotiated. Perhaps that's what has been
> >happening
> >> >in Vianden.
> >> >
> >> >The border situation is all the more obvious, since south of bdy
> >> >marker 47 a municipal sectional border continues southwards
> >> >the middle of the lake, and across the dam.the
> >> >
> >> >I found another nice piece of evidence of the special status of
> >> >delu boundary rivers. According towas
> >> ><<http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
> >>http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
> >> ><http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html>
> >>http://webplaza.pt.lu/public/rleick/BrueckeSchengen.html , on the
> >> >river ferries a right of asylum once existed. When someone that
> >> >persecuted could reach a ferryboat, he could stay there for sixon
> >weeks
> >> >and three days, without fear of being arrested. If he succeeded,
> >after
> >> >this time, to make three steps on dry ground, the asylum was
> >renewed
> >> >for six weeks.
> >> >When a persecuted person wanted to go to the other side, the
> >ferryman
> >> >would bring him over, return, and only then take the persecutors
> >> >board!old,
> >> >It looks like this is some old law, preceding the condominium of
> >1815.
> >> >Possibly the condominium solution even so much as succeded the
> >> >already existing legal practises at the border rivers.Groups
> >> >
> >> >Peter S.
> >> >
> >> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >>
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