thanxx to peter & especially to martin for the further clave & sovereignty
elucidations
& i am glad to learn equatorial guinea is truly exclavic
nicholsons usage of land area to the contrary notwithstanding
but i must say this throws my whole previous understanding
or i should say misunderstanding
of maritime tri sovereign points into the drink
so it is back to the underwater drawing board for me
& you can probably expect a considerable retrenchment from my earlier guess
of 160 maritime tri country points worldwide
upon further relection also
i would just like to retreat an extra inch here by adding the following
hopefully final nuance to clave usage
altho saying flatly
an enclave of any country
still seems to me to be an abuse of the word of
nevertheless it is not really an abuse of the word in to say
llivia is an exclave of spain or a spanish exclave in france
while i would still prefer to say within france in such cases
but it would still seem to me to be an abuse of the word in to say
llivia is an exclave in france
without first identifying it as an exclave of spain or a spanish exclave
otherwise i wouldnt want to budge from the positions outlined below
m
>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:10:09 -0500
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>From: michael donner <m@...>
>Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>thank you brendan also for this partial concession to my ordinary
>pedestrian usage of the clave words
>
>but neither my dogeared american heritage dictionary nor i can swallow
>your simultaneous concession to davids fine point also given below
>hahaha
>
>
>that books as well as my own beliefs & models are as follows
>
>enclave
>a country or part of a country lying wholly within the boundaries of another
> so in normal straight talk
> san marino is an enclave in or within italy
> & campione is an italian enclave in or within switzerland
> & no need to even think about an enclave of anything
> for that would technically be a abuse of the word of
>
> btw these correspond to rolfs types 1 & 3 respectively
> tho when he says btw he usually means between
>
>exclave
>a portion of a country which is isolated in alien territory
>but not expressly or necessarily within a single alien territory
> & it even adds a map with the legend
> cabinda is an exclave of angola
> tho it does commit the blunder of verbally placing it in congo kinshasa
> & there is no real need to think about an exclave in anything
> & to do so would technically be an abuse of the word in
>
> this entire exclave word corresponds to rolfs type 2
>
>
>& thats it
>no distinctly different usages than these basic ones are even suggested
>
>
>& to me all of this simply says that in normally understandable parlance
>an enclave may be an entire country or a part of a country
> but it must always be surrounded by a single other country
>& an exclave must always be a part of a country
> but it may or may not be surrounded by a single other country
>
>so these words really do have a simple flipflop mutuality
>but it is not the same simple flipflop mutuality sophisticated people like
>us often expect them to have & frankly overburden them with
>
>really i swear there is no finesse or syntactical vagary at work here at all
>
>& indeed i can sometimes hardly figure out what you all & all your
>authorities are talking about
>
>hahaha
>just my 2 bits toward the general food fight
>
>nice smorgasbord jesper
>
>m
>
>
>>
>>No. No claves, ex or en.
>>The mainland bit i would call a fragment of the island, as the island has
>>the larger population and more importantly the capital. The mainland is
>>larger in area, but still a fragment, as it is peripheral.
>>***********
>>David pulled me up on a fine point:
>>an enclave or exclave must be surrounded entirely by one other unit.
>>An enclave is inside you and an exclave is a PIECE of you inside someome
>>else.
>>Eq. Guinea is and has neither of these.
>>
>>By definition, agreed on by Robinson, Catudal, Farran, Raton, etc
>>An exclave is a piece of one country/political unit separated form that unit
>>and totally surrounded by ONE other unit.
>>therefore it must be:
>>a) a piece of a larger entity
>>b) landlocked and 100% surrounded by another unit.
>>Jungholz is not an exclave as it has a point connection with mainland
>>Austria. But being a singularity is very interesting nonetheless.
>>
>>I dislike the distinction of en and ex claves, and tend to call both
>>enclaves.
>>
>>Why?
>>Because traditionally, Llivia is an exclave of Spain but an enclave of
>>France.
>>BUT that makes it also a French exclave and a Spanish enclave form the
>>spanish and French points of view respectively.
>>So if it is a Spanish enclave AND a Spanish exclave, a French enclave AND a
>>French exclave, what's the point of the distinction?
>>It gets easily lost in English syntax.
>>
>>Thus I prefer not to draw the distinction in that way, as I think it serves
>>little purpose.
>>
>>B
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: michael donner <m@...>
>>>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>>Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>>>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:07:46 -0500
>>>
>>>this is good stuff brendan
>>>& the distinctions are useful
>>>
>>>are you saying then that you think equatorial guinea does have an exclave
>>>as the question was about claves rather than fragments
>>>
>>>m
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> >I think the martimie terr is an EEZ, and not territorial sea.
>>> >Which means a foreign naval presence can move through it.
>>> >But the point of rragments is that they disrupt normal administration and
>>> >travel and trade etc because there is a rupture of foreign territory or
>>>sea
>>> >or lake or unbridged river.
>>> >The greater this is in width, the harder the administration.
>>> >
>>> >Even in territorial sea, someone can come in and suck up the water, and
>>>you
>>> >can't do anything about it. But if someone comes on to your land and
>>>starts
>>> >digging holes you can.
>>> >
>>> >Holes of high seas within an EEZ create administrative problems as ANYONE
>>> >must be given access to those holes, which allows them to fish illegally
>>>in
>>> >your waters on the way through, and it is harder to manage stocks of fish
>>> >etc because of that free-fishing hole.
>>> >
>>> >Once islands like Denmark's are connected by bridges, the administration
>>> >problems begin to disappear.
>>> >B
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>From: michael donner <m@...>
>>> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>> >>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>> >>Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>>> >>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:11:27 -0500
>>> >>
>>> >>i have a map by prescott that shows the 2 apparent fragments of
>>>equatorial
>>> >>guinea to be connected by maritime territory & thus not to really be
>>> >>fragments at all
>>> >>at least no more than sjaelland & continental denmark are fragments
>>> >>nor than any offshore island within the territorial waters of denmark or
>>> >>any other country is a fragment
>>> >>
>>> >>m
>>> >>
>>> >>by contrast i would say the danish island of bornholm is a true fragment
>>> >>because in this special case foreign maritime territory does cut it off
>>> >>completely from the rest of danish territory
>>> >>
>>> >>or have i missed your point
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> >No. Enclaves have to be totally surrounded by one other entity.
>>>Eq.G.'s
>>> >> >mainland is coastal and borders two other countries on land.
>>> >> >However, it is an interesting FRAGMENT, as although larger in area,
>>>and
>>> >> >'mainland', it is smaller in population than Rio Muni island, AND it
>>>does
>>> >> >not have the capital.
>>> >> >Other examples are:
>>> >> >Malasia, where E.Malaysia is larger, but has smaller pop and not the
>>> >>capital
>>> >> >Samoa, where the smaller island has the larger popn and the capital
>>> >> >Pakistan 1947-1971, where the western part was larger and had the
>>> >>capital,
>>> >> >but the East had more population.
>>> >> >Denmark, where the capital is on an island, not the larger mainland.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >Brendan
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>From: "Jesper & Nicolette Nielsen" <jesniel@...>
>>> >> >>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>>> >> >>To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> >> >>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Largest enclave
>>> >> >>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:48:13 +0100
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>Which is the largest enclave in relations to the main area?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>How about Equatorial Guninea?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >><<<http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>> >><http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>> >> >><<http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>> >><http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html>
>>>http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ek.html
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>If the capital is on an island so far from the main land is then the
>>> >>main
>>> >> >>land an enclave?
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>Jesper
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >>
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