Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Geographic anomalies
Date: Dec 30, 2000 @ 22:40
Author: michael donner (michael donner <m@...>)
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i like your position david

it is actually most inclusive & reasonable
as well as elegantly simple

but maybe i am prejudiced in your favor
since my fetish has been about the water

m


>
>Maybe I have a radical position here, but I have never understood at all
>why this group seems to have such a fetish about land. To be, and exclave
>or enclave is formed by the spatial relation of a territorial (political,
>fiat) boundary. Disconnected pieces of a political unit are I think by
>definition exclaves of that unit. Separation by water does not count (in
>my opinion) if the water between is part of the territory. Michigan is
>not discontiguous because the lake waters between the two major parts is
>part of the territory. But if Saint Pierre is truly PART of the territory
>of France, and separated by non-France, then it is by definition an
>exclave, no? And the status of Alaska or Hawaii in relation to the other
>48 states is identical.
>
>David
>
>On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, michael donner wrote:
>
>> welcome mats
>> we are the geographic anomalies
>> & glad you are enjoying & could join us
>>
>> i think our resident enclavologist brendan may be out of town because he is
>> usually pretty quick to respond when he can
>> & our special clavologist arif may also be away
>> either of whom i think could have helped you bigtime here
>> & probably will in short order
>>
>> please dont hesitate to carry on at length tho
>>
>> we are here because we cant get too much anyway
>>
>> in the meantime
>> some topics like guantanamo or llivia may be fruitful to enter as a search
>> term on any of the bp pages such as
>> <http://www.egroups.com/messages/boundarypoint>
>>http://www.egroups.com/messages/boundarypoint
>>
>> st pierre is a favorite of mine too tho
>>
>> i see in the maritime political boundaries of the world by jrv prescott
>> fig 13 3 shows french waters fully enclaved within canadian waters
>>
>> so st pierre & its territorial waters are nominally or technically a french
>> maritime enclave within canadian maritime territory
>>
>> i have never heard anyone seriously claim overseas islands are exclaves tho
>>
>> nor islands within coastal waters either for that matter
>>
>> like everyone will probably say that alaska is an exclave of the usa
>> but that hawaii is not an exclave of the usa
>>
>> is it just a matter of being on a continent rather than insular
>> or must it be on the same continent
>> or may it be on any contiguous continent
>>
>> inconsistency seems rampant & it gets pretty funny when you realize there
>> probably arent & cant be any hard & fast rules or definitions
>>
>> add to this the fact that both clave words have both more technical & more
>> general or even ignorant uses
>>
>> like if st pierre is not a true exclave of france because it is an island
>> then is french guyana a truer exclave of france for being on a continent
>> & is ceuta a better exclave of spain for being on a contiguous continent
>> & gibraltar an even better exclave of britain for being homeocontinent
>>
>> i will look forward to hearing more on these entertaining topics tho
>>
>> best for now
>> m
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Colleagues,
>> >
>> >Please be advised that this message is fairly long. If I voilate
>> >some list-etiquette because of this, please let me know and
>> >it won't be repeated.
>> >
>> >I only recently found your community on the net, but I have
>> >truly enjoyed browsing the message archive.
>> >
>> >Although tripoints certainly is an interesting feature, I should
>> >like to have some input on enclaves and exclaves.
>> >
>> >We can probably agree on some definition of the words 'enclave'
>> >and 'exclave', so let me extend the discussion to other interesting
>> >geographic anomalies as well.
>> >
>> >JUNGHOLZ
>> >For quite some time I have wondered about the status of Jungholz,
>> >so thank you for the recent clarification on this matter. I shall look
>> >forward to the forthcoming reports from the single connection point.
>> >
>> >LLIVIA, CAMPIONE D'ITALIA, BAARLE-HERTOG, BUESINGEN
>> >These are fairly wellknown exclaves. Do you discuss them at all,
>> >and if so, would anyone have any interesting links or maps?
>> >
>> >MOUNT ATHOS
>> >Is this an enclave? How much political independence is required
>> >for us to consider a territory an enclave? By the way, does complete
>> >maritime exclusion count, or do we only concern ourselves with
>> >at least partly landlocked entities?
>> >
>> >ST PIERRE ET MIQUELON
>> >Speaking of maritime exclusion, do we consider the small french
>> >islands just off the east coast of Canada an exclave?
>> >
>> >GUANTANMO BASE
>> >Guantanamo is an american naval base on Cuba. Does anyone
>> >have any interesting input?
>> >
>> >CASES OF EXCLAVES WITHIN EXCLAVES
>> >Baarle-Hertog is a well-known example of the extremely rare case, where
>> >exclaves exist within exclaves. There is allegedly another case in Oman.
>> >Does anyone have any information on this? By the way, did you know
>> >that there is at least one Dutch exclave within the main territory of
>> >Belgium in the vicinity of Baarle? I'll scan a map and put it here if
>>anyone
>> >
>> >has interest in this fact.
>> >
>> >LITHUANIA
>> >Is there, or is there not, a lithuanian exclave within Belarus?
>> >
>> >THE VATICAN
>> >Does anyone have a *good* map of the Vatican? I'd like to be able to
>> >see precisely where the border is.
>> >
>> >CYPRUS
>> >There seems to exist at least two british military bases, constituting
>> >independent territories, on Cyprus, and at least one turk-cypriotic
>> >exclave on the north-west coast of the island. Information, anyone?
>> >
>> >CEUTA, MELILLA
>> >Does anyone have information or good maps of the two spanish
>> >exclaves on the moroccan coast?
>> >
>> >NEUTRAL ZONES
>> >What neutral zones do we know of? Are there neutral zones close to
>> >Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla? And what happened to the rombic shaped
>> >neutral zone in the desert between Saudi Arabia and Iraq? Is it still
>> >there?
>> >
>> >IRELAND
>> >Was there ever an irish exclave within the territory of Northern Ireland?
>> >I have a map that would suggest such a case, but it may well be a
>> >badly produced map. Can anyone clarify this case?
>> >
>> >HISTORIC GEOGRAPHIC ANOMALIES
>> >
>> >Do you concern yourself at all with historic enclaves? As the supply of
>> >living enclaves and exclaves is finite, why not look into some not-too-
>> >long-gone cases?
>> >
>> >WEST-BERLIN
>> >Well, Berlin (West), surely the most well-known exclave of the near past.
>> >But did you know that there were several sub-exclaves off Berlin, i. e.
>> >areas within East-German territory belonging to West-Berlin? I have
>> >found Eiskeller, Steinstuecken (connected to West-Berlin with a corridor
>> >in 1971 or 1972, I think) and Falkenhagener Wiese. Were there others?
>> >What are their stories? Does anyone know? I have a wonderful russian
>> >map that outlines those sub-exclaves and I'll scan it if anyone is
>> >interested.
>> >
>> >ZARA or ZADAR
>> >Zara was an italian exclave on the coast of Croatia, now called Zadar.
>> >Does anyone have any information or maps?
>> >
>> >PORKALA
>> >Porkala was a large Soviet military base on the Finish south coast.
>> >I think the area was rented by the Soviets as part of the peace treaty
>> >following the second world war. Information, anyone?
>> >
>> >DANZIGER FREISTAAT
>> >Does anyone have any information on the State of Danzig, which existed
>> >between the world wars? Good maps?
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >Mats
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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