Maybe I have a radical position here, but I have never understood at all
why this group seems to have such a fetish about land. To be, and exclave
or enclave is formed by the spatial relation of a territorial (political,
fiat) boundary. Disconnected pieces of a political unit are I think by
definition exclaves of that unit. Separation by water does not count (in
my opinion) if the water between is part of the territory. Michigan is
not discontiguous because the lake waters between the two major parts is
part of the territory. But if Saint Pierre is truly PART of the territory
of France, and separated by non-France, then it is by definition an
exclave, no? And the status of Alaska or Hawaii in relation to the other
48 states is identical.
David
On Fri, 29 Dec 2000, michael donner wrote:
> welcome mats
> we are the geographic anomalies
> & glad you are enjoying & could join us
>
> i think our resident enclavologist brendan may be out of town because he is
> usually pretty quick to respond when he can
> & our special clavologist arif may also be away
> either of whom i think could have helped you bigtime here
> & probably will in short order
>
> please dont hesitate to carry on at length tho
>
> we are here because we cant get too much anyway
>
> in the meantime
> some topics like guantanamo or llivia may be fruitful to enter as a search
> term on any of the bp pages such as
> http://www.egroups.com/messages/boundarypoint
>
> st pierre is a favorite of mine too tho
>
> i see in the maritime political boundaries of the world by jrv prescott
> fig 13 3 shows french waters fully enclaved within canadian waters
>
> so st pierre & its territorial waters are nominally or technically a french
> maritime enclave within canadian maritime territory
>
> i have never heard anyone seriously claim overseas islands are exclaves tho
>
> nor islands within coastal waters either for that matter
>
> like everyone will probably say that alaska is an exclave of the usa
> but that hawaii is not an exclave of the usa
>
> is it just a matter of being on a continent rather than insular
> or must it be on the same continent
> or may it be on any contiguous continent
>
> inconsistency seems rampant & it gets pretty funny when you realize there
> probably arent & cant be any hard & fast rules or definitions
>
> add to this the fact that both clave words have both more technical & more
> general or even ignorant uses
>
> like if st pierre is not a true exclave of france because it is an island
> then is french guyana a truer exclave of france for being on a continent
> & is ceuta a better exclave of spain for being on a contiguous continent
> & gibraltar an even better exclave of britain for being homeocontinent
>
> i will look forward to hearing more on these entertaining topics tho
>
> best for now
> m
>
>
> >
> >Colleagues,
> >
> >Please be advised that this message is fairly long. If I voilate
> >some list-etiquette because of this, please let me know and
> >it won't be repeated.
> >
> >I only recently found your community on the net, but I have
> >truly enjoyed browsing the message archive.
> >
> >Although tripoints certainly is an interesting feature, I should
> >like to have some input on enclaves and exclaves.
> >
> >We can probably agree on some definition of the words 'enclave'
> >and 'exclave', so let me extend the discussion to other interesting
> >geographic anomalies as well.
> >
> >JUNGHOLZ
> >For quite some time I have wondered about the status of Jungholz,
> >so thank you for the recent clarification on this matter. I shall look
> >forward to the forthcoming reports from the single connection point.
> >
> >LLIVIA, CAMPIONE D'ITALIA, BAARLE-HERTOG, BUESINGEN
> >These are fairly wellknown exclaves. Do you discuss them at all,
> >and if so, would anyone have any interesting links or maps?
> >
> >MOUNT ATHOS
> >Is this an enclave? How much political independence is required
> >for us to consider a territory an enclave? By the way, does complete
> >maritime exclusion count, or do we only concern ourselves with
> >at least partly landlocked entities?
> >
> >ST PIERRE ET MIQUELON
> >Speaking of maritime exclusion, do we consider the small french
> >islands just off the east coast of Canada an exclave?
> >
> >GUANTANMO BASE
> >Guantanamo is an american naval base on Cuba. Does anyone
> >have any interesting input?
> >
> >CASES OF EXCLAVES WITHIN EXCLAVES
> >Baarle-Hertog is a well-known example of the extremely rare case, where
> >exclaves exist within exclaves. There is allegedly another case in Oman.
> >Does anyone have any information on this? By the way, did you know
> >that there is at least one Dutch exclave within the main territory of
> >Belgium in the vicinity of Baarle? I'll scan a map and put it here if anyone
> >
> >has interest in this fact.
> >
> >LITHUANIA
> >Is there, or is there not, a lithuanian exclave within Belarus?
> >
> >THE VATICAN
> >Does anyone have a *good* map of the Vatican? I'd like to be able to
> >see precisely where the border is.
> >
> >CYPRUS
> >There seems to exist at least two british military bases, constituting
> >independent territories, on Cyprus, and at least one turk-cypriotic
> >exclave on the north-west coast of the island. Information, anyone?
> >
> >CEUTA, MELILLA
> >Does anyone have information or good maps of the two spanish
> >exclaves on the moroccan coast?
> >
> >NEUTRAL ZONES
> >What neutral zones do we know of? Are there neutral zones close to
> >Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla? And what happened to the rombic shaped
> >neutral zone in the desert between Saudi Arabia and Iraq? Is it still
> >there?
> >
> >IRELAND
> >Was there ever an irish exclave within the territory of Northern Ireland?
> >I have a map that would suggest such a case, but it may well be a
> >badly produced map. Can anyone clarify this case?
> >
> >HISTORIC GEOGRAPHIC ANOMALIES
> >
> >Do you concern yourself at all with historic enclaves? As the supply of
> >living enclaves and exclaves is finite, why not look into some not-too-
> >long-gone cases?
> >
> >WEST-BERLIN
> >Well, Berlin (West), surely the most well-known exclave of the near past.
> >But did you know that there were several sub-exclaves off Berlin, i. e.
> >areas within East-German territory belonging to West-Berlin? I have
> >found Eiskeller, Steinstuecken (connected to West-Berlin with a corridor
> >in 1971 or 1972, I think) and Falkenhagener Wiese. Were there others?
> >What are their stories? Does anyone know? I have a wonderful russian
> >map that outlines those sub-exclaves and I'll scan it if anyone is
> >interested.
> >
> >ZARA or ZADAR
> >Zara was an italian exclave on the coast of Croatia, now called Zadar.
> >Does anyone have any information or maps?
> >
> >PORKALA
> >Porkala was a large Soviet military base on the Finish south coast.
> >I think the area was rented by the Soviets as part of the peace treaty
> >following the second world war. Information, anyone?
> >
> >DANZIGER FREISTAAT
> >Does anyone have any information on the State of Danzig, which existed
> >between the world wars? Good maps?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Mats
>
>
>
>
>
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