Subject: Re: American State Boundaries
Date: May 08, 2003 @ 23:27
Author: acroorca2002 ("acroorca2002" <orc@...>)
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> Believe me, I am not ignorant of the point on the other side ofthe
> argument. But human scale is reasonable when asking thequestion "What is
> the longest common state boundary?" and the answer wouldNOT be CA-NV, but
> OK-TX. That is, if the questioner were really interested in thecomparative
> lengths to see which is longer.defined in the
>
> If one were to walk the high water line of the Red River as
> legal document setting up OK-TX, in all of its twists and turnsand dried up
> bayous and wherever it went, that person would not be walkingforever. It
> isn't infinite. Measure that path when he gets to the end andyou will have
> a very good human-scale length. The fact that you can then getan electron
> microscope and measure around molecules in between eachfootstep until the
> end of time doesn't make it sound any less silly to say this isnot truly
> longer than CA-NV, which is demonstrably shorter than eventhe smallest
> estimate of OK-TX.Nature" by
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian J. Butler [mailto:bjbutler@b...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:44 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
>
>
> On Thursday 08 May 2003 01:17 pm, you wrote:
> I wish you would read Chapter 5 of "The Fractal Geometry of
> BenoitBritain?".
> M. Mandelbrot, the title of which is "How Long Is the Coast of
> Here is the second paragraph of that chapter:accurately, and this
>
> "There are various ways of evaluating its length more
> chapter analyzes several of them. The result is most peculiar:coastline
> length turns out to be an elusive notion that slips between thefingers of
> one who wants to grasp it. All measurement methodsultimately lead to the
> conclusion that the typical coastline's length is very large andso ill
> determined that it is best considered infinite. Hence, if onewishes to
> compare different coastlines from the viewpoint of their 'extent',length is
>mathematical
> an inadequate concept."
>
> The book, and this chapter in particular, provide a rigorous
> basis for what I have been arguing. I understand your pointabout "real
> world" measurements, but I think the salient aspect of suchmeasurements is
> that they are only estimates. From a legal perspective asufficiently
> accurate estimate might suffice, but with natural boundaries itwill always
> be possible to improve on the estimated by consideringsmaller and smaller
> scales, and when that happens the length of the boundaryincreases without
> limit with mathematical certainty. So, at what scale do we loseinterest
> andclaiming
> claim it doesn't matter? I don't think you can get off the hook by
>For example,
> that it is a "human scale" because that is a meaningless term.
>Manhattan than in
> surveying accuracy standards are much more stringent in
> rural areas.measured,
>
> So the coastline of Ellis Island could not have been precisely
> opinions of the even the measurers notwithstanding. But I willconcede that
>and stated.
> at some arbitrary level of precision its length can be estimated
>and bows
> BJB
>
> > I didn't say it's always an easy task -- following all the bends
> > of the Red River at OK-TX is a difficult chore -- but the legalboundary
> > can be measured and is measured in human scale. It's funto argue about
> > measuring around a molecule, but c'mon. Don't get lost inthe theory so
> > much that you're immobilized in the real world.length of the
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian J. Butler [mailto:bjbutler@b...]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 4:30 AM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
> >
> >
> > On Thursday 08 May 2003 02:07 am, you wrote:
> > I seriously doubt that anyone has attempted to measure the
> > Ellis Island boundary. Why would they? Estimating andmarking its
> > positionrealize that your
> >
> > has value but determining its length is purely academic.
> >
> > Your analogy to the "angels on a pin" argument made me
> > devotion to the "definite length theory for fractal boundaries"is a
> matteryou agree?
> > of faith for you, and is therefore impervious to logic. Would
> >the head of htis
> > > Please let's not have the "how many angels can dance on
> > > pin" discussion again. We can and do measure naturalborders, and we
> > > don't need an electron microscope to do it. They didmeasure around the
> > > presumed 1934 low water line on Ellis Island and there isa length to
> it.must
> > > It is really silly to say that a river that courses, e.g., 10 miles
> > > be regarded as infinite in shorelineand equal to the Nile.http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> --
> Brian J. Butler
> BJB Software, Inc.
> 508-429-1441
> bjbutler@b...
> http://www.bjbsoftware.com
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to