-----Original Message-----
From: acroorca2002 [mailto:
orc@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 2:01 PM
To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin"
<flynnk@r...> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: acroorca2002 [mailto:orc@o...]
> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 10:06 AM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
> The Nile isn't infinitely long.
right & i never implied it was
you were talking about shorelines tho
& shoreline boundaries in particular
or so i thought
& so i was responding to that
River, shoreline, no matter.... it was claimed earlier in the thread that
the same problem with infinite measurement would exist even if the boundary
were declared to be the middle of the river. In fact, that keeps changing
with height of the water, doesn't it, so that might be a bigger problem than
shoreline!
So my going back and forth from shoreline to river is of no matter to the
discussion.
i dont think anyone was talking about the nile itself
I was.
in fact i dont even think the nile proper follows a boundary
tho some of its headwaters evidently do
but you do keep changing the terms
& implicitly or explicitly substituting the river for the shoreline or
the boundary that was actually the topic of our mutual interest
which is ok
but please at least know that you are doing it
& implying even sillier words have come from me than even i
intended
As I stated, it is of no matter to the discussion point, which was that it
isn't useful to say that a river -- or the bank along it -- that flows for
10 miles is of equal length to the Nile. That's just nonsense.
> but also why not be really silly
> & why couldnt the shorelines of unequal rivers be equal
>
> Because they are different lengths.
> Yes, I would like to read them. Can you post them or give a
link? Also, is
> there any written record of the practices prior to 1834 that led to
the
> Compact having to be written? IIRC, the compact was to
memorialize and
> standardize a set of past practices and customs regarding the
islands in NY
> Bay.
you are probably right
abstracts from bus&ss 1976 pp76f
njny was plainly stated in the grant by the duke of york to berkeley
& carteret in 1664
the geodetic sector from njne to njnypa was run & confirmed
between 1719 & 1773
in 1833 commissioners were appointed by ny & nj for the
settlement of the territorial limits & jurisdiction of the 2 states
agreement reached & ratified & confirmed 1834
provided as follows
article first
the boundary line between the 2 states of ny & nj
from a point in the middle of hudson river opposite the point on
the west shore thereof in the 41st degree of north latitude
as heretofore ascertained & marked
aka njne
to the main sea
shall be the middle
of the said river
of the bay of new york
of the waters between etc etc
except as hereinafter otherwise particularly mentioned
article second
the state of ny shall retain its present jurisdiction of & over
bedloes & ellis islands
& shall also retain exclusive jurisdiction of & over the other
islands lying in the waters abovementioned & now under the
jurisdiction of that state
article third
the state of ny shall have & enjoy exclusive jurisdiction of & over
all the waters of the bay of new york
& of & over all the waters of hudson river lying west of manhattan
island & south of the mouth of spuyten duyvel
& of & over the lands covered by the said waters
to the low water mark on the westerly or nj side thereof
subject to the following rights of property & of jurisdiction of the
state of nj
that is to say
1
the state of nj shall have the exclusive right of property in & to the
land under the water lying west of the middle of the bay of new
york
& west of the middle of that part of the hudson river which lies
between manhattan island & nj
2
the state of nj shall have the exclusive jurisdiction of & over the
wharves docks improvements etc etc
bedloes island & ellis island
tho on the nj side of the boundary
are under the jurisdiction of the state of ny
& are a part of greater new york city
end of extracts
But the heart of the question remains unanswered:
The compact as cited above declares two separate rights. That of exclusive
property and that of exclusive jurisdiction. It does not say that Bedloes
and Ellis islands are in the state of NY. It merely says NY has exclusive
jurisdiction over them... and that has been my question, to determine
whether Ellis and bedloes can be considered a *part* of the state of NY, or
merely a part of the state of NJ over which NY from colonial times bullied
itself into having jurisdiction.
I note that the compact as cited also gives NY jurisdiction over the Hudson
River and lands underneath it all the way to the low water mark on the NJ
side of the river from Spuyten Duyvel south (Harlem River). Yet all maps
show the state boundary line going down the middle of the Hudson west of
Manhattan Island.
So it seems evident though not clear to me that the intent of all this is
NOT to make Ellis and Bedloes a part of the state of NY, but to memorialize
and formalize NY's historic dominance over all maritime activity in the
waters of NY Bay -- all but the wharves and docks extending from above the
low water line on the NJ shore.
Agree?