See this for the process that was used:
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/gis/gisupdate/up1499.pdf
The article was not satisfactory in addressing my ultimate question: "Is
Ellis Island a corporate part of NY state wholly surrounded by NJ, or is it
simply a part of NJ that is controlled and administered by NY state through
an agreement on a lesser level than actual territory of NY state?
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian J. Butler [mailto:
bjbutler@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 3:30 PM
To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
On Wednesday 07 May 2003 04:57 pm, you wrote:
So, does the boundary conform to a set of defined corners with stright line
segments between them or to the high water mark?
BJB
> Yes. someone posted an article from a NJ GIS newsletter and it included a
> map from the pleadings that showed the NY jurisdictional boundary... it
> follows the presumed 1834 low water mark, now on high ground thanks to the
> surrounding infill.
>
> BTW, I forgot to mention earlier, what I posted is consistent in fact with
> the CNN quote; there is no conflict. Most of the current Ellis Island is
> reclaimed land and hence NJ, not NY.
>
> Again I pose the question, though: Is the NY jurisdiction due merely to an
> 18th century practice memorialized in a 19th century compact allowing NY
to
> exercise authority there, or is there some instrument that actually makes
> Ellis Island a part of the corporate entity of the state of NY? It's a
> subtle difference, but is the island a disconnected piece of NY state or
> just a part of NJ that NY owns and governs by lesser agreement?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian J. Butler [mailto:bjbutler@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 1:51 PM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
>
>
> On Wednesday 07 May 2003 03:08 pm, you wrote:
> I thought someone mentioned that this boundary was now defined by a set of
> marked corners. If so, I agree that the boundary's length is measurable,
> but
> that is a different problem than we discussed earlier.
> BJB
>
> > Note that I wrote the "original" island which was +/- 3 ac in size. The
> > 1834 NY-NJ compact gave NY jurisdiction over land above the low water
> > level, while NJ had jurisdiction of all land submerged. When the US
Gov't
> > began filling operations and expanded the size of the island in the late
> > 1800s to use it as an immigration center, the seed of the dispute was
>
> sown.
>
> > The 1997 SCOTUS decision recognized that in 1834, expansion of the
island
> > was not envisioned; so that the dredging and filling operations that
> > followed took place on submerged -- i.e. NJ -- land and therefore is NJ,
> > not NY. So the island is split jurisdiction along the 1834 low water
mark
> > -- and despite the earlier arguments about the supposed impossibility of
> > measuring a water boundary or other physical boundary, has in this case
> > been clearly defined.
> >
> > What I want to know and have not yet received a clear answer is this:
>
> Since
>
> > the NY-NJ boundary officially runs down the middle of the Hudson and out
> > the center of the bay itself, and Ellis and Bedloe's (Liberty) islands
> > lie wholly on the NJ side of that centerline, are those islands that are
> > under NY jurisdiction merely pieces of NJ that are ruled by NY, or are
> > they corporately part of the official lands of the state of NY, that is,
> > true outclaves of NY?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. A. Nadybal [mailto:lnadybal@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:33 AM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
> >
> >
> > How does your reply square with what CNN wrote in its report on the
> > Supreme Court case from the end of May 03 where it stated:
> >
> > "As a result, most of the island in New York Harbor from now on must
> > be considered Ellis Island, New Jersey"?
> >
> > I agree the Feds don't have a mini-DC there, but the Sumpreme Court
> > only said, apparently, that the Feds don't have the right to alter the
> > border of two states at that point. Does the dispute go on?
> >
> > LN
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@r...>
wrote:
> > > Ellis Island, while owned by the federal government, is not federal
> > > territory with a boundary to be established. The 3-acre +/- original
> >
> > island
> >
> > > is NY and the infill surrounding area, and surrounding waters, is NJ.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: L. A. Nadybal [mailto:lnadybal@c...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:15 PM
> > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...> wrote:
> > > > in reply to craig:
> > > >
> > > >"it is noteworthy that the ellis island njny loop was originally
> > > >fractal but since it is based today on a former rather than the
> > > > present shoreline the supreme court adjudicator or special master
was
> > > > forced to rationalize the line into a series of plotted points"
> > >
> > > That wouldn't come into play as an aswer to the question about
> > > "interstate" boundaries, because the part of Ellis Island that is
> > > federal would make it the second place within the country that is not
> > > a part of any state. For that reason, we couldn't consider the DC-VA
> > > border in trying to answer the question. There's got to be a tripoint
> > > at one place on the perimiter of the federal portion of Ellis island
> > > and another at some other location on the perimiter from which the
> > > joint border continues anew. NJ-NY will not have a common border
> > > where the federal portion interrupts.
> > >
> > > And, to close off with the "but..." question? Did the Supreme Court
> > > actually say that the plot of federal land on the island is not part
> > > of either state or did the court do a "favorite" and leave things
> > > ambiguous by saying only that neither state had jurisdiction?
> > >
> > > LN
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
Brian J. Butler
BJB Software, Inc.
508-429-1441
bjbutler@...
http://www.bjbsoftware.com
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