Yes. someone posted an article from a NJ GIS newsletter and it included a
map from the pleadings that showed the NY jurisdictional boundary... it
follows the presumed 1834 low water mark, now on high ground thanks to the
surrounding infill.

BTW, I forgot to mention earlier, what I posted is consistent in fact with
the CNN quote; there is no conflict. Most of the current Ellis Island is
reclaimed land and hence NJ, not NY.

Again I pose the question, though: Is the NY jurisdiction due merely to an
18th century practice memorialized in a 19th century compact allowing NY to
exercise authority there, or is there some instrument that actually makes
Ellis Island a part of the corporate entity of the state of NY? It's a
subtle difference, but is the island a disconnected piece of NY state or
just a part of NJ that NY owns and governs by lesser agreement?

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian J. Butler [mailto:bjbutler@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 1:51 PM
To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries

On Wednesday 07 May 2003 03:08 pm, you wrote:
I thought someone mentioned that this boundary was now defined by a set of
marked corners. If so, I agree that the boundary's length is measurable,
but
that is a different problem than we discussed earlier.
BJB

> Note that I wrote the "original" island which was +/- 3 ac in size. The
> 1834 NY-NJ compact gave NY jurisdiction over land above the low water
> level, while NJ had jurisdiction of all land submerged. When the US Gov't
> began filling operations and expanded the size of the island in the late
> 1800s to use it as an immigration center, the seed of the dispute was
sown.
>
> The 1997 SCOTUS decision recognized that in 1834, expansion of the island
> was not envisioned; so that the dredging and filling operations that
> followed took place on submerged -- i.e. NJ -- land and therefore is NJ,
> not NY. So the island is split jurisdiction along the 1834 low water mark
> -- and despite the earlier arguments about the supposed impossibility of
> measuring a water boundary or other physical boundary, has in this case
> been clearly defined.
>
> What I want to know and have not yet received a clear answer is this:
Since
> the NY-NJ boundary officially runs down the middle of the Hudson and out
> the center of the bay itself, and Ellis and Bedloe's (Liberty) islands lie
> wholly on the NJ side of that centerline, are those islands that are under
> NY jurisdiction merely pieces of NJ that are ruled by NY, or are they
> corporately part of the official lands of the state of NY, that is, true
> outclaves of NY?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. A. Nadybal [mailto:lnadybal@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:33 AM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
>
>
> How does your reply square with what CNN wrote in its report on the
> Supreme Court case from the end of May 03 where it stated:
>
> "As a result, most of the island in New York Harbor from now on must
> be considered Ellis Island, New Jersey"?
>
> I agree the Feds don't have a mini-DC there, but the Sumpreme Court
> only said, apparently, that the Feds don't have the right to alter the
> border of two states at that point. Does the dispute go on?
>
> LN
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Flynn, Kevin" <flynnk@r...> wrote:
> > Ellis Island, while owned by the federal government, is not federal
> > territory with a boundary to be established. The 3-acre +/- original
>
> island
>
> > is NY and the infill surrounding area, and surrounding waters, is NJ.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: L. A. Nadybal [mailto:lnadybal@c...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 8:15 PM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: American State Boundaries
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002" <orc@o...> wrote:
> > > in reply to craig:
> > >
> > >"it is noteworthy that the ellis island njny loop was originally
> > >fractal but since it is based today on a former rather than the present
> > >shoreline the supreme court adjudicator or special master was forced to
> > >rationalize the line into a series of plotted points"
> >
> > That wouldn't come into play as an aswer to the question about
> > "interstate" boundaries, because the part of Ellis Island that is
> > federal would make it the second place within the country that is not
> > a part of any state. For that reason, we couldn't consider the DC-VA
> > border in trying to answer the question. There's got to be a tripoint
> > at one place on the perimiter of the federal portion of Ellis island
> > and another at some other location on the perimiter from which the
> > joint border continues anew. NJ-NY will not have a common border
> > where the federal portion interrupts.
> >
> > And, to close off with the "but..." question? Did the Supreme Court
> > actually say that the plot of federal land on the island is not part
> > of either state or did the court do a "favorite" and leave things
> > ambiguous by saying only that neither state had jurisdiction?
> >
> > LN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
Brian J. Butler
BJB Software, Inc.
508-429-1441
bjbutler@...
http://www.bjbsoftware.com

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