hi len,

things seem to be little complicated:

http://www.wesermuen.de/WESERMUENDE.html

in 1924 the city wesermünde was founded from the cities of Lehe and Geestmünde. Bremerhaven belonged to Bremen until 1939. in this year Bremerhaven came to the city of Wesermünde with the exception of the harbour region. this became part of the city of Bremen one year earlier in march 30th 1938.

you find a map of the situation in 1942 at http://www.wesermuen.de/WESERMUENDE-Karte.html (as i posted before). the funny thing on this map is, that they call the region of the harbour "bremerhaven", but this is not correct, its just the "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet", the main part of the then bremerhaven is part of wesermünde.

1947 wesermünde was renamed in Bremerhaven. the same year Bremerhaven got his own "kommunale verfassung" as an independent city in the Bundesstaat Bremen.

the "bundesstaat" Bremen today consists of the cities of Bremen and Bremerhaven, and the "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet" is in fact part of the city of bremen (unless its part of the Bundesstaat bremen).

i add a map of the "Flächennutzungsplan" of the city of Bremen, where you can see the "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet".

Regards, chris

----- Original Message -----

From: L. A. Nadybal

To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:40 PM

Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: third level exclave bremen

Stadtgemeinde Bremerhaven sowie zum Ortsteil Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet Bremerhaven der Stadtgemeinde Bremen gehörenden Wasserflächen der Weser. Let's analyze this: You werote that it says "zum Ortsteil Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet Bremerhaven.." it doesn't say "zum Ortsteil Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet Bremen". Even in English you wrote "'Ortsteil' (=town section) Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet Bremerhaven of the city-municipality of Bremen." I interpret that to mean that Bremerhaven suburb called "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet" and the suburb Bremen's water surfaces of the Weser" belong to the coastal waters. I don't see how you get out of it that Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet could unquestionably be a part of the suburb of Bremen. I think the two make up an inseparable "Staatstadt" made of two perhaps autonomously administered parts of one city. Len [As coastal waters in the context of this law are meant those waters of the Weser river that belong to the city-municipality of Bremerhaven and those that belong to the "Ortsteil" (=town section) Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet Bremerhaven of the city-municipality of Bremen. --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@y...> wrote: > This is how I understand it: the federal land Bremen is made up of > two cities/municipalities (=Stadtgemeinde): Bremen and Bremerhaven. > The part nowadays called "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet" is part > of Stadtgemeinde Bremen. I would say this is a third level exclave. > Fehrmoor is, on the other hand, a second level exclave, because it is > surrounded by Lower Saxony. > > Maybe there is a permit office in Bremerhaven, just the people > in "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet" have to apply for a permit in > their own municipality, i.e. Bremen proper. > > Peter S. > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal" <lnadybal@c...> > wrote: > > Something's strange in this discussion. > > > > Hansastadt Bremen is made up of two pieces, Bremen and Bremerhaven. > > Bremerhaven translated is "Harbor of Bremen". On the surface, I > think > > we are involved in discussing city with two parts (stadtteile), a > land > > (state) that is in two parts and corporate harbor area (state/land > or > > possibly even city owned and operated), all at the same time without > > discerning between them. > > > > "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet" translates as "City of Bremen's > > Overseas Harbor District". Hamburg has similar, a part of the > harbor > > for domestic traffic and a section for imports (outside of the > customs > > zone). > > > > Are we really talking about a "third level exclave/enclave" here, or > > only about a part of town in the northern section. It may be that > in > > the "City of Bremen's Overseas Harbor District" there's no permit > > office for residence permits, visas, etc., and that is in some other > > part of town - like in downtown Bremen or somewhere 100km > away. > > > > Regards > > > > Len Nadybal > > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Schulz" <23568@g...> > wrote: > > > very nice map from 1942: > > > > > > http://www.wesermuen.de/WESERMUENDE-Karte.html > > > > > > fehrmoor can be seen also! > > > > > > regards , chris > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Peter Smaardijk > > > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:35 PM > > > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: third level exclave bremen > > > > > > > > > Great stuff, and it hasn't been discussed before I think. > > > By the way, in this attached map you can see the Fehrmoor > exclave in > > > its entirety! An extra bonus! > > > > > > Peter S. > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Schulz" > <23568@g...> > > > wrote: > > > > hi, > > > > > > > > dont know, if this was discussed before. > > > > in bremerhaven there is a part of the city, > called "Stadtbremisches > > > Überseehafengebiet", that belongs to the city of Bremen, 50 km > in the > > > south. > > > > > > > > i found a radio-spot about it. unfortunately its in german. > > > > for the non-german-speaking guys: > > > > it describes, why and how in 1938 this part of bremerhaven > became > > > part of the city of bremen. > > > > > > > > http://stream.radiobremen.de/ramgen/media/rbton/bremeneins/chronik/at2 > > > 0030330.rm > > > > > > > > another detail for the german-speaking guys: > > > > http://www.bremerhaven.de/stadt/aemter/vpol/einreise.html > > > > its about the situation for people, working on ships that > come to > > > the "Stadtbremisches Überseehafengebiet". if these guys try to > > > arrange things about there papers in germany. they have to go > to > > > bremen. > > > > > > > > regards, chris > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service.

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