well marcel you have traced this as well as could be & it really does ap=
pear to have been a working intermunicipal rock since 1660 at latest if not=
continuously since even roman times & it could also yet prove to have been=
de jure at least part of the way back if any of the right scribblings we=
re ever to turn up
but without evidence of an esfr boundary before 1660 the candidacy of the =
pedra dreta seems to stall beside harrys 1480 denl rock in overijssel & othe=
rs less old for even tho they too are still without complete textual confir=
mation the treaties necessary to validate them do at least stand a good cha=
nce of being found
or would you not agree
wondering too if there wasnt also a left stone left somewhere perhaps nea=
rby to go with this right stone
m
--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., <marcelmiquel@n...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Consulted the treaty of Llívia ( nov. 12th, 1660 ), there is no mention
> to any border marker. From 1660 to 1868 ( delimition act ) the
> spanish/french border at La Cerdanya and Llívia was not defined, and
> the communal borders were considered international borders. There were
> many frontier conflicts ( see P. SAHLINS: Boundaries: the making of
> Frenace and Spain in the Pyrenees ) because the border was not fixed.
> There are several spanish and french maps from the enclave for military
> and fiscal purposes, and all marked the enclave limit where the ³pedra
> dreta² is placed, as a turning point. There is a spanish catastral (
> =fiscal map ) of 1732 ( see Sahlins pag. 87, il. 6 ) that marks ³Piedra
> derecha² (=pedra dreta ) at this point. In another map, a french
> military one from 1840 ( Sahlins, p. 211, il. 8 ), the same turning
> point is marked where the old stone is placed.
>
> The treaty of limits ( 1866 ) mentions ³pontarró d¹en Xidosa², the
> place where the stone is placed, but not the pedra dreta. The comission
> who delimatated the border took the old markers as a reference. From
> Sahlins ( p.252): ³ The problem of determining the comunal boundaries
> was a two-stage process: first, the comissioners sought out documents
> describing communal limits of earlier centuries; then tried to
> determine where those boundaries could be marked on the ground. The
> real issue, as General Callier noted, was the ³signification"²of the
> descriptions- the relation between the text and the terrain.² Sahlins
> mentions, in the case of Llívia, a dispute of limites with the town of
> Angostrina. I think the ³pedra dreta² as a undisputed boundary limit is
> clear, because the marker number 1 is placed there, and according the
> delimitation act :³next to the old stone who has been the boundary of
> Llívia, Ur and Càldegues². So we can assume that from 1660 from 1868
> this stone was a international boundary marker ³de facto², despite it
> was not mentioned in a treaty, just because a treaty of limits didn¹t
> exist.
>
> I¹ve attached a ortophoto map 1:5.000. I¹ve marked the boundary. The
> stone is placed next to the turning point, where the border marker n.1
> is placed.
>
>
> Marcel
>
> >glad to learn you are pursuing this further marcel & look forward
> to >your=
> > report from the 1660 text for it seems likely you will find this
> >stone men=
> >tioned there with the names & dates of antecedent treaties for ongoing
> >pursu=
> >it but i agree what better place could there be to dive right in
> >than this=
> > cerdanya treaty not only because you can but also because nobody has
> >yet b=
> >een able to qualify with treaty texts the rival candidate standing on
> >the de=
> >nl line
>
> >m
>
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@y..., <marcelmiquel@n...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >> so my question here becomes when did this rock begin its service
> as
>
> > >an
>
> > >> international boundary rock
>
> > >> & that can probably be answered in the treaty texts
>
> > >
>
> > >Probably the treaty that divided the Cerdanya. Sixteen-something....
>
> > >That's when Llivia town became detached from the surrounding
>
> > >countryside.
>
> >
>
> > >Marcel?
>
> > >
>
> > > so in sum first i do think extreme congrats are in order here in
>
> > any case
>
> > >
>
> > >And from me too.
>
> > >
>
> > >Peter S.
>
> >
>
> > Perhaps the partition treaty of Cerdanya (Treaty of Llívia,
>
> > 12/11/1660), mentions the stone. Next monday I will be able to
> confirm
>
> > it, because I don't have the book near. But the final delimination
> was
>
> > in 1868. Before this delimitation act, the international border was
> the
>
> > ancient municipal border. So, the "pedra dreta" surely was "de facto"
> a
>
> > international boundary marker
>
>
>
>
>
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