yes
thank goodness you have elaborated on this
& it is all exactly as i thought
cant trust local authority
even when written on signs
must go to sources
& from what we know about the local zeal for what they call patrimony
it is hard to imagine this rock ever slipping off the border
the way the trois pierres seem to have done
so i am ecstatic after such a near letdown that we still have our monster &
our rock of ages bid intact
merci mon pierre
m
>From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...>
>Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Breitenstein pictures in Photos section!
>Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:08:05 -0000
>
>I'm not sure. The 25k topo map of the area I have seems to indicate
>it is no longer a working stone. But this possibly is because the
>border is depicted on the other side of the road. On French 25k maps,
>the boundary is never drawn in the middle of the road, and on the
>Breitenstein side there is not much room for it. So either it isn't a
>working stone anymore (I have searched for a stone on the other side
>of the road that would be the region boundary marker), or it is, but
>we can only tell, I think, if we get detailed information from the
>French authorities, or a map with a bigger scale.
>
>I have read somewhere else that the Breitenstein _is_ on the
>Alsace/Lorraine border (can't remember where now). The stone is
>probably not 'in' the municipality of Meisenthal, like it says on the
>sign at the spot. According to my map, it is in Mouterhouse, although
>close to the border. The stone could even be a tripoint (Meisenthal,
>Mouterhouse, Wingen-s/Moder), because of the already mentioned
>inability to depict a border _on_ a road. But, as I said, it is
>difficult to tell from the map.
>
>Anyway, when I will post the follow-up, I will include a scan of the
>map I have. Then you can judge for yourself.
>
>But I think only the authorities can give us the answer whether the
>Breitenstein is still working. I still give it the benifit of the
>doubt, not only because I want it to be a working stone, but also
>because I don't see any reason why a stone that certainly was a
>working one in the past, especially such a prominent one, would lose
>its job.
>
>Peter S.
>
>--- In BoundaryPoint@y..., "m donner" <maxivan82@h...> wrote:
> > thanx peter for these top notch words
> >
> > they seem to indicate the monster is no longer functional as a
>boundary
> > marker of any kind
> > thus no longer a candidate for oldest working rock in the world
> > even if still a candidate for other honors
> >
> > can you confirm
> >
> >
> > & is such a loss of eminence also true of its 2 companion candidates
> >
> >
> > & if so
> > or if not
> > what is left standing at the top of this category
> >
> >
> > m
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@y...>
> > >Reply-To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > >To: BoundaryPoint@y...
> > >Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Breitenstein pictures in Photos section!
> > >Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:53:30 -0000
> > >
> > >And now the Alsatian monster, the Breitenstein. I have taken
>another
> > >four pictures of it. Later on, I will show you pictures of the
>Drei-
> > >Peterstein and the Spitzstein, and a lot of very pretty early 17th
> > >century boundary stones in the vicinity, still marking the boundary
> > >between Alsace and Lorraine. Really a "must" for the boundary
>marker
> > >freak�
> > >
> > >The text of the explanatory sign at the Breitenstein (in French and
> > >German; I reproduce the French text here, because I take this from
>a
> > >photograph I have taken of the sign, and whereas the French text is
> > >only just barely readable, the German text is unreadable.):
> > >
> > >Breitenstein
> > >
> > >Le Breitenstein, traduit litt�ralement par "pierre large" ou plus
> > >justement par "pierre fronti�re", est un bloc de gr�s rouge d'une
> > >hauteur de 4,40 m. Situ� aujourd'hui sur le territoire de la
>commune
> > >mosellane de Meisenthal, il fut autrefois un point remarquable de
>la
> > >limite entre l'Alsace et la Lorraine.
> > >
> > >Ce monolithe dress� par l'homme garde toujours secrets son �tat
> > >originel et sa signification primitive. En remontant son histoire,
>on
> > >d�couvre certains usages v�rifi�s ou suppos�s: lieu de f�te, de
>foire
> > >ou de p�lerinage, borne de fronti�re ou de p�age, monument pa�en
> > >christianis�, s�pulture, rep�re pour le calcul du calendrier
> > >d'anciennes peuplades, site tellurique aux qualit�s th�rapeutiques�
> > >
> > >Une longue histoire qui remonterait � la civilisation m�galithique
> > >
> > >Cit� pour la premi�re fois en 713 dans une charte de donation �
> > >l'abbaye de Wissembourg, le Breitenstein a toujours �t� consid�r�
> > >comme une pierre borne.
> > >
> > >Du c�t� alsacien, il a marqu� � partir du XIVe si�cle la limite des
> > >droits d'escorte conf�r�s aux puissants sires de Lichtenberg. En
> > >�change du paiement d'un p�age, les voyageurs et leurs marchandises
> > >b�n�ficiaient de leur protection entre Strasbourg et le
>Breitenstein.
> > >
> > >Un calvaire et les repr�sentations des douze ap�tres se dressent
> > >aujourd'hui au sommet du rocher. Cette transformation de la pierre
> > >remonte � 1787, accomplissement d'un voeu pieux d'un riche marchand
> > >de la r�gion. Comme certains menhirs bretons, le Breitenstein
>devint
> > >alors un signal chr�tien et prit le nom de "Pierre des douze
> > >Ap�tres". Peu apr�s, les figures entourant la croix furent
> > >d�capit�es. Peut-�tre � la mi-novembre 1793, quand le g�n�ral Hoche
> > >�tablit son camp � proximit� imm�diate? Confirmation de l'int�r�t
> > >strat�gique du lieu: un poste assez important de l'Arm�e du Rhin y
> > >fut cantonn� quelques temps.
> > >
> > >En fait, le Breitenstein est �tabli � un carrefour de routes
> > >importantes: l'antique Via Bassoniaca, voie de cr�te Sud-
>Ouest/Nord-
> > >Est, et une art�re commerciale Nord-Sud qui permettait de rejoindre
> > >la Lombardie depuis les Flandres en passant par Strasbourg,
>Ingwiller
> > >et Sarrebruck. Borne fronti�re au moins depuis l'�poque
> > >m�rovingienne, on peut supposer qu'elle le fut aussi � l'�poque
> > >romaine entre Cit� m�diomatrique et Cit� triboque.
> > >
> > >Il est tentant de voir dans le Breitenstein un menhir �rig�
>plusieurs
> > >si�cles avant la civilisation gallo-romaine. Le contexte local le
> > >sugg�re: non loin de l� se dresse une autre pierre lev�e: le
> > >Spitzstein.
> > >
> > >Entre les deux, le Drei-Peterstein, ensemble remarquable de
>rochers,
> > >et le Markstein, aujourd'hui disparu.
> > >
> > >As I said: more to come. But it may take another few days.
> > >
> > >Peter S.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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