Subject: Re: Tripoint picture: BZGTMX
Date: Jan 16, 2006 @ 00:53
Author: aletheiak ("aletheiak" <aletheiak@...>)
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--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@w...> wrote:
>
> See my several insertions below.
>
> Lowell G. McManus
> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "aletheia kallos" <aletheiak@y...>
> To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Tripoint picture: BZGTMX
>
>
> > --- "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@w...> wrote:
> >
> >> That's it!
> >
> > i would say not that thats it
> > necessarily
> > but that that now marks a position that was at least
> > formerly & widely believed to be it
>
> Okay. I can agree with that. It was only afterward, when I read your
> subsequent post, that I recalled the new BZGT survey that missed this monument
> some couple of hundred meters to the east. My exclamation of ITness was meant
> to celebrate the discovery of a photo of the heretofore elusive Monument 107,
> not so much as to anoint it the tripoint for all time.
>
> >> Notice how monument 107 on page 17 is much larger
> >> and of different design than
> >> the standard GTMX monuments.
> >
> > my guess about this is
> > the difference in size & design has to do with the
> > difference between what they are calling principal &
> > intermediate gtmx markers
> > rather than a difference between gtmx markers as such
> > & a bzgtmx marker
>
> That could be, but this probably bilateral principal GTMX marker was clearly
> placed where it is because it was intended at the time to be the eastern
> terminus of GTMX, which would be at the BZGTMX tripoint as then understood.
>
> >> From the two photos,
> >> we can say that it has
> >> plaques on two adjacent sides (probably three) and
> >> lacks any on one side.
> >
> > perhaps we can say that
> > or will eventually be able to
> > but will you first explain this more clearly
>
> Well, one photo does show two adjacent plaqued sides, and the other shows one
> plaqued and one blank side. That accounts for at least three sides of the four
> sides, only two of which are plaqued.
>
> > as i find it & your following inference inexplicable
> > so far
> >
> >> That
> >> would be consistent with the tripoint.
>
> A square monument at a T-shaped tripoint would be expected to be plaqued on
> three sides and blank on one. (The three plaques reading: BZ|MX; MX|GT; and
> GT|BZ.) What we can see is not inconsistent with that. Thus, this mounment, at
> the time of its erection seems to have been intended by whomever as the
> tripoint--in other words IT. If a newer BZGT survey (once ratified) misses it
> to the east and necessitates a stitch, so be it. As I discuss below, I would
> expect that stitch to become part of GTMX, not of BZGT; and I would expect a new
> eastward monument to become the new tripoint, not just a corner. I think we are
> in agreement on that.
>
> > i would say
> > consistent with your notion of the tripoint so far
> > but it remains to be seen if belize really has signed
> > on to this marker in any way or ever will
>
> I fully agree with your last two lines.
>
> > i dont say it is impossible
> > because there is still a chance that bzmx for which
> > there is no known demarcation will eventually
> > terminate at this gtmx marker 107 rather than at the
> > new bzgt terminal rock 200m east of there
> >
> > but please note especially that mexico has agreed in
> > principle to the new tripoint location
> > & moreover that even tho this pdf is the work of a
> > bzgtmx border commission
>
> More precisely, this fascinating PDF is the work of the MEXICAN SECTION of that
> commission and documents its recent work on those segments of GTMX the
> monumentation and maintenance of which are Mexico's responsibility--other
> segments of GTMX being Guatemala's responsibility.
>
> > the bzgtmx tripoint per se is not referred to anywhere
> > in it
> > & seems rather to be assiduously avoided if anything
> > & indeed is as conspicuous in its absence from the
> > text as belize is from the maps
> > which almost kiss her & the tripoint too
> > yet ignore them
>
> Yes, and Belize is not mentioned because the recent works involved only
> monumentation and maintenance of GTMX, and not of any Belizean boundary.
>
> > also please note in the following ibs study
> > http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS161.pdf
> > that it is the meridian of garbutts falls on bzgt that
> > delimits the geodetic segment of bzmx
> > & it was just this meridian that was corrected in the
> > new bzgt alignment
> > & which gtmx marker 107 formerly marked everyones best
> > guess of
> > but no longer does
>
> Very well put! It is apparent from this IBS that the 1893 MXUK treaty puts the
> pertinent segment of their boundary on "the meridian of Garbutt's Falls at a
> point due north of the point where the boundary lines of Mexico, Guatemala, and
> British Honduras intersect." This would seem to require BZMX to be in alignment
> with BZGT. [End of insertions.]
>
> > so for all these reasons i believe we are here still
> > between a tripoint position that never really was &
> > another that is far more probable & yet still doesnt
> > legally exist either
> >
> > for further clarification
> > please see also
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/19187
> >
> >> Altogether,
> >> this is a fascinating
> >> document.
> >>
> >> Lowell G. McManus
> >> Leesville, Louisiana, USA
>