most probably just an entering or welcome to sudan sort of sign
since it just says the sudan in arabic on the north side
there is no known egds demarcation
& no known south side of this sign i might add
funny that it chanced to hit an integral degree & border intersection tho
of which sudan has a good dozen or so
including eglysd herself
so it is even funnier that none was reported at the eglysd intersection
& funniest of all that none of the other dozen candidate intersections are reported at
project intersection
er i mean project confluence
but wouldnt it be just too much fun to start a real confluence documentation project & call
it project intersection
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...> wrote:
>
> Could this be EGSD demarcation?
>
> http://www.confluence.org/photo.php?visitid=11575
> <http://www.confluence.org/photo.php?visitid=11575&pic=ALL> &pic=ALL
>
>
>
> Who reads Arabic? Isn't the left symbol five-something?
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På
> vegne af aletheiak
> Sendt: 5. januar 2006 07:56
> Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD class b
>
>
>
> & a very sweet dream indeed as well as a brilliant analysis & synthesis dear
> doctor
> but off the top of my head
> egsd even in the wadi halfa nile salient was last reported totally
> undemarcated as of 1962
> per ibs
> so your valiantly won trilaterality & tridatum intersection appears to
> evaporate in the
> desert
>
> but hardy & steady as she blows matey for we are whaling in mirage country
> here
>
> & something seems to be turning up
>
> yes
> per the other ibs
> egly has its mediterranean border base at a place called beacon point
> no relation
> & was reportedly marked by beacons 206 miles inland from there
>
> & this strange note with perhaps a new clue
>
> on 15dec1937 a commission met & arranged to move some of the boundary
> pillars
> westward in order to improve intervisibility & to delimit the boundary as a
> series of
> straight lines between beacons instead of the previous line which followed
> the tracks
> between the beacons
> & 9 extra beacons were erected at this time bringing the total to 187
> & this whole chain of permanent beacons was reported satisfactorily
> completed in a proces
> verbale dated 3may1938
> which
> could well tell us or lead us to the egly datum
> if we ever did find an egsd datum
> for completing the still elusive intersection & triangulation you propose
>
> also & stranger
> a whole fresh chain of border arcs mike kaufman & i missed in our crazy arc
> census is
> built into egly tho not quite nakedly visible in here
> http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/bs61.html
> but thats just for titillation & profits us nothing
>
>
> &
> aha
> but here in the lysd ibs your point & synthesis are finally made in earnest
> still hypothetically of course but its a warm lead
> for it indicates
> 23 or 24 miles south of eglysd
> lysd appears to be demarcated by 12 boundary beacons
>
> however no info available on their type or condition
>
> funny way to put it & unusual circumstance too
> but it points toward a lost treaty text & in it perhaps a lost lysd datum
> which
> when combined with our more hopefully found egly datum
> completes your proposed trilateral datum cross artifice by the back door
>
> of course we still have to track down the one ordinary egly & this other
> mystery lysd treaty
> but its a way to proceed
> superchallenging as it may seem
>
> but something better to pursue in daylight i would think
>
> so keep on dreamin
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@w...> wrote:
> >
> > While the EGLYSD tripoint has almost certainly never been surveyed
> according to
> > any datum whatsoever, it seems likely that other segments of the EGLY
> meridional
> > boundary (farther north) and of EGSD (in the vicinity of the Nile Valley)
> have
> > been surveyed and demarcated. Shouldn't the same datum that was used in
> those
> > surveys be applied along the whole length of the respective meridian and
> > parallel, since it has already been accepted by the parties?
> >
> > I am reminded that it was the ancient Egyptians who invented surveying to
> > reestablish cadastral boundaries when the annual Nile floods erased
> landmarks.
> >
> > Lowell G. McManus
> > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "aletheia kallos" <aletheiak@y...>
> > To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:51 PM
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD class b
> >
> >
> > > nice stuff thanx
> > > & please look for quite a few inserts ahead
> > >
> > > --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...> wrote:
> > >
> > >> >>thus as likely wgs84 as any<<
> > >>
> > >> definitely won't be WGS84 since that was not in use
> > >> until 1984 (hence the
> > >> "84" in its name).
> > >
> > > hahaha you certainly may disallow me & i knew dat
> > > about 84
> > > but i dont infer wgs84 should be ruled out for that
> > > reason
> > >
> > > on the contrary i think the relative newness &
> > > universality of wgs84 may especially recommend &
> > > automatically promote it in this special case
> > >
> > > for diametrically unlike the maritime borders of
> > > indonesia
> > > where technical & legal complications create a
> > > particular urgency to get all these datums clarified
> > > the situation at eglysd smacks of complete
> > > indifference & utter neglect over many decades
> > >
> > > & so i reason in the apparent absence of any evidence
> > > of a specified datum for this point since its creation
> > > in 1925 til the present
> > > that it either remains unspecified until today & thus
> > > highly subject to the wgs84 default principle
> > > or else that any specificity it may have acquired
> > > would most likely have occurred post 1984 & would thus
> > > very likely be in the form of wgs84 for that reason as
> > > well
> > >
> > > also where so many as 3 parties are involved universal
> > > norms tend to be preferred to local ones
> > >
> > > your indonesia text says flat out
> > > for its own special case but with universal
> > > applicability in this case
> > > wgs84 seems to be most sensible to adopt
> > > &
> > > all decisions should be legally agreed by all
> > > countries involved
> > >
> > >> I suspect that the Egypt 1907 Datum might have been
> > >> used
> > >
> > > but what in particular leads you to guess egypt 1907
> > >
> > > i can imagine egypt & sudan adopting it but not so
> > > readily libya
> > >
> > >> - but see
> > >>
> > > <http://www.fig.net/pub/cairo/papers/ts_45/ts45_01_abidin_etal.pdf>
> > >>
> > > http://www.fig.net/pub/cairo/papers/ts_45/ts45_01_abidin_etal.pdf
> > >> where it
> > >> notes, using Indonesian maritime boundaries as its
> > >> focus, that often the
> > >> datum is NOT specifically denoted in a relevant
> > >> treaty
> > >
> > > exactly my point as well as my guess here at eglysd
> > > since day 1 in 1925 & even up to the present
> > >
> > >> and discusses the
> > >> issues that arise as a result.
> > >
> > > yes naturally many in the worlds busiest seas but none
> > > in the worlds most desolate wasteland
> > >
> > >> If you don't have
> > >> time to read the whole
> > >> paper
> > >
> > > who me
> > > i have all the time in the world for such
> > > deliciousness
> > >
> > >> the following section from the summary can
> > >> help to understand the
> > >> thesis:
> > >>
> > >> "The uncertainty in geodetic datum of boundary
> > >> points introduces
> > >> complications and problems
> > >> in spatial management of Indonesia's maritime
> > >> boundaries, since it can
> > >> displace the boundary
> > >> lines from their assumed true location. The
> > >> displacements of boundaries in
> > >> WGS84 datum are
> > >> generally in the order of a few hundred meters, i.e.
> > >> about 200 to 400 m,
> > >
> > > indeed did you notice 420m was the max they cited
> > > later in the article
> > >
> > > sounds like your datum shift demo wants to take place
> > > in the indonesian jungles
> > >
> > >> depending on the
> > >> assumed original geodetic datum of the boundaries
> > >> stated in the treaties.
> > >> These boundary
> > >> displacements are spatially advantageous for
> > >> Indonesia in some cases and
> > >> also
> > >> disadvantageous in others."
> > >
> > > i also appreciated & hope you did too the specific
> > > reference in this article to the attainment of
> > > submeter level accuracy in pilotage by ecdis dgps in
> > > 2004
> > > which nicely fills in a blank space in our earlier
> > > discussion here
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18568
> > >
> > > end inserts
> > > & sweet dreams
> > >
> > >
> > >> The following paper might be relevant to EGLYSD -
> > >>
> > > http://www.asprs.org/resources/grids/06-2003-kenya.pdf
> > >> - although it
> > >> primarily refers to Kenya it also mentions the use
> > >> of various datums in
> > >> Egypt and the Sudan.
> > >>
> > >> Googling "latitude longitude datum egypt" will
> > >> provide a host of other links
> > >> too numerous to reproduce here that will provide a
> > >> wealth of additional
> > >> information.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _____
> > >>
> > >> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > >> [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > >> On Behalf Of aletheiak
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:33 PM
> > >> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: EGLYSD class b
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> there is no mention in any of the relevant ibs
> > >> numbers that the 1925 italian
> > >> egyptian
> > >> agreement establishing this tripoint or the 1934
> > >> italo british egyptian
> > >> agreement
> > >> reaffirming it included any official maps or even
> > >> specified any official
> > >> datum or datums
> > >>
> > >> various british french american & north african maps
> > >> of the 1930s thru 1960s
> > >> tho are said
> > >> there to reliably depict the various borders
> > >> convergent here at eglysd
> > >>
> > >> & one cant conclude the datum is elusive for it
> > >> might well just be the
> > >> common &
> > >> nonelusive default datum of
> > >> none specified
> > >> & thus as likely wgs84 as any
> > >> in which case the try or rather the result would
> > >> indeed be a very loose
> > >> class b
> > >> as represented by the little man in the gully in the
> > >> first pic
> > >> or more likely a tight class c at probably 14 meter
> > >> range
> > >> but if this is not correct
> > >> then there remains some possibility of a class d or
> > >> even class e
> > >>
> > >> for there also remains an outside chance that the
> > >> tripoint is in fact marked
> > >> whether by an official durable marker
> > >> since some other parts of these remote borders are
> > >> so marked
> > >> or even by just some little cairn or something these
> > >> folks could have missed
> > >> since there is also no evidence that they were
> > >> really studying the border
> > >> alignments or
> > >> trying for the tripoint in any other way than just
> > >> for the lat long
> > >> intersection
> > >>
> > >> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
> > >> <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > wow
> > >> > nicely done
> > >> > & a pleasure to see the shots back on goal & the
> > >> discussion back on target
> > >> again
> > >> >
> > >> > & since all 3 ibs numbers
> > >> > 10 & 18 & 61
> > >> > join brownlie in indicating this tripoint is
> > >> unmarked
> > >> > or at least was unmarked as recently as 1979
> > >> > it is hard to argue with the bona fides of their
> > >> perfect gps readings
> > >> > no matter what datum they may have been using
> > >> >
> > >> > but since even they are only claiming 14 meter
> > >> range at best
> > >> > & were having difficulty getting it
> > >> > i think i would credit them only with a class c
> > >> > as in seeing the objective for certain with their
> > >> eyes
> > >> > somehow
> > >> > at some point
> > >> > in their overall visitation process
> > >> > rather than a class b
> > >> > as in necessarily having been at the exact spot
> > >> with their bodies
> > >> > for i think that honor would remain to be won
> > >> > in this unusual circumstance
> > >> > by someone with a better quality gps receiver
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper
> > >> Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks to the unknown visitor to Borderbase, who
> > >> submitted the entry
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22
> > >> > > <http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22
> > >>
> > > <http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22
> <http://www.confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=22&lon=25> &lon=25>
> > >> &lon=25> &lon=25
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jesper
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Borderbase - your online guide to international
> > >> borders and tripoints
> > >> > >
> > >> > > http://www.nicolette.dk/borderbase
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _____
> > >>
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