Do we know the year that the Tri State Rock was installed? Assuming that it and
the witness monument are not contemporary, the laborious explanation on the
latter was probably devised to correct the known waywardness of the former's
grooves. The USGS bronze disc in the top of the former was probably an even
later addition. It would be interesting to know the angles of any die-stamped
lines that radiate from its central dimple.
Lowell G. McManus
Leesville, Louisiana, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "aletheia kallos" <aletheiak@...>
To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] yikes could njpa be a condo & thus njnypa & denjpa
trilines rather than tripoints
> thanx pal
> tho i keep jack parsells book here with me in the
> flesh at all times
>
> & of course it is a big help as usual
>
> in this case it says
> the big monument says
> on the nj side
> south 64 degrees west
> 72 & a quarter feet from this
> is the tri state rock
> which is the northwest end of the ny & nj boundary &
> the north end of the nj & pa boundary
> &
> on the ny side
> the corner between ny & pa is in the center of the
> delaware river
> 475 feet due west of the tri state rock
>
>
> & it is this text that gives the lie to & indeed
> trumps the trifinial diagram that is shown on the tri
> state rock that it witnesses & points toward
>
> for in that diagram
> which is also nicely shown in the book
> the nypa line does not turn due west from the njny
> terminal point
> to give ny its proper 209 degree pie slice as
> correctly shown only on the 100k scale topo
> but it is actually shown pivoting slightly in the
> wrong direction
> & thus erroneously indicating only about 170 degrees
> of the pie for ny
>
> & i am pretty sure its depiction of the njpa line is
> likewise mistaken
> whether njpa proves to be a legal condo or not
> & that only its depiction of the njny line is
> technically accurate
>
>
> in the meantime too i have done some more checking
> & have learned that the njpa line is widely presumed
> to run down the middle of the delaware
> but that the river is in fact at least a joint njpa
> police jurisdiction from bank to bank
> all the way from new york to delaware
> whether it proves to be a true territorial condo or
> not
>
> & if it does prove to be a territorial condo from bank
> to bank
> as the 1783 agreement seems to say & as i believe has
> never been changed but only forgotten
> perhaps
> then the tri state rock marks the nw corner of this
> condo & the west end of the njnypa triline
> aka nj&ny&njpa
> &
> your mentioned point in the middle of the river 475
> feet due west of the tri state rock marks the east end
> of the njnypa triline
> aka ny&pa&njpa
> while the northeast corner of the condo is farther due
> west on the pennsylvania bank
>
>
> & the correspondingly presumptive denjpa triline btw
> down at the other end of the condo
> unlike the njnypa triline that runs only halfway
> across the river to the mentioned nypa corner
> would appear to run from shore to shore at low tide
> because the delaware arc does
>
>
> another interesting detail in this connection
> or rather the lack of a detail
> is that i cant find now nor can i recall ever having
> seen a njpa state line sign in the middle of any
> delaware river bridge
> but only welcome signs at the respective ends of those
> bridges
>
> not that finding one would necessarily prove anything
> but not finding any is rather suspicious
>
> or i should say auspicious
> for a condo
>
>
> & finally
> we have always found it very peculiar at njnypa to
> find pa on the left bank at all
> havent we
>
> & in the absence of any legal text placing it there
> so far
> the only possible reason i can think of for anyone to
> have ever marked it there is
> to acknowledge not that pa proper has crossed the
> river
> but rather only that a njpa condominial territory
> extends all the way across
>
>
> so at this point
> i must say
> i am fairly itching to run down there to port jervis
> again
> if just to correct the trifinial diagram on the rock
> with my magic marker
>
>
> --- Jack Parsell <jparsell@...> wrote:
>
>> With reference to the the July 6, 2005 message, you
>> can refresh your memory
>> by going to Brian Butler's site,
>> www.bjbsoftware.com/corners and clicking on
>> the NJ-NY-PA location on the map. From that page
>> click on "Jack Parsell's book"
>> and you will find a paragraph giving the wording of
>> the inscriptions on the big
>> monument.
>>
>> Jack
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: aletheia kallos
>> To: boundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:01 AM
>> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] yikes could njpa be a
>> condo & thus njnypa & denjpa trilines rather than
>> tripoints
>>
>>
>> you may recall spooky mikes recent revisit to
>> njnypa &
>> his illustrated question about it
>>
>>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18068
>> which precipitated this also illustrated
>> advancement
>> in the state of play there
>>
>>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7397
>> but left us with these messy questions
>>
>>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7399
>> & finally led to this new hypothesis for a revised
>> trifinial diagram
>>
>>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7402
>>
>> well i didnt realize it at the time
>> but have just noticed that simply by shifting at
>> topozone from the 24k scale 1981 topo to the 100k
>> scale 1986 topo of the same location
>>
>>
> http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4578304&e=525499&s=50&size=s&datum=nad83&layer=DRG100
>> there is already confirmation that the usgs must
>> have
>> soon realized its own mistake
>> & the correction here shows nypa proceeding due
>> west
>> from the njnypa tristates monument
>>
>> & thats very gratifying already because it
>> confirms
>> that new york does indeed occupy the full 209
>> degree
>> slice of the pie that was hypothesized there
>> rather
>> than only the 180 degrees of it shown on both the
>> tri
>> states rock diagram & the 24k topo
>>
>> & here on book page 522 aka pdf page 31
>>
>>
> http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf
>> or
>>
>>
> http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1j59s4Dl81QJ:www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf+%22delaware+river%22+%22concurrent+jurisdiction%22+%22new+jersey%22+pennsylvania&hl=en&client=safari
>> is further confirmation that nypa proceeds due
>> west
>> from the njnypa tri states monument
>> to the center of the main channel of the river
>> or in other words exactly as stated on the nearby
>> 1882
>> nypa witness marker
>> rather than wnw as depicted by the trifinial
>> diagram
>> upon it
>>
>> but it is also noteworthy that this text provides
>> besides the specs of the nypa alignment within the
>> river from nj to pane
>> the proviso of concurrent nypa jurisdiction
>> everywhere
>> between the banks
>>
>> & that in itself is not really a territorial
>> condominium
>> nor is it even a very unusual policing arrangement
>> on
>> border rivers
>> tho it has its problems
>> as mentioned here about halfway down the page
>> following footnote 602 in the text
>>
>> http://www.constitution.org/cmt/stimson/con_crim.htm
>> where the concurrent njpa jurisdiction established
>> in
>> 1783 is coincidentally cited as an example
>>
>> which got me to thinking further
>> or rather jogged my memory back to text of that
>> agreement as cited in bus&ss
>> which says
>> in digest
>> the delaware river
>> from the nw corner of nj down to the place where
>> the
>> circular boundary of delaware touches it
>> is a common highway equally free & open for the
>> use
>> benefit & advantage of both nj & pa
>> &
>> each state shall enjoy & exercise a concurrent
>> jurisdiction within & upon the water
>> tho not upon the islands
>> all of which are assigned by name to the nearer
>> state
>> per the text & a 1786 addendum
>>
>> but that is evidently all she ever really wrote
>> for njpa
>>
>> yep thats right
>> concurrent jurisdiction just like that described
>> above
>> for the nypa sector of the delaware
>> except it seems
>> no njpa state line was ever specified within the
>> river
>> in this case as the nypa state line later was
>>
>> & looking for subsequent njpa agreements that
>> could
>> have clarified or added such a delineation
>> i find none
>> tho it may be telling that there is a 1934 joint
>> njpa
>> toll bridge commission
>>
>>
> http://ssl.csg.org/compactlaws/delawareriverjointollbridge.html
>> which doesnt mention any state line within the
>> river
>> but resorts to weird circumlocutions like
>> the bucks phila county line in pennsylvania as
>> extended across the river to the nj shore
>>
>> but the question then arises
>> if there is no real njpa delineation other than
>> the
>> river as a whole between ny & de
>> then what to make of the njpa state line depicted
>> within the river by usgs maping
>>
>> like where did that even come from
>>
>> & i cant answer that question yet
>>
>> i did study the whole thing from njnypa to denjpa
>> tho
>> on the 24k scale
>> & discovered a few things
>>
>> first
>> the usgs does get the distribution of all the
>> islands
>> mentioned in the 1780s compacts all right
>> but then divides right down the middle various
>> other
>> islands evidently not mentioned there
>> yet often diverges from the middle of the main
>> channel
>> as if it might be following a thalweg
>> but then in other places is shown outside the
>> navigational channel entirely
>> nor is it ever indicated as being indefinite
>> anywhere
>> but merely behaves uncertain & haphazard
>> & in one place it even crosses a peninsula jutting
>> out
>> from the nj side
>>
>> in other words
>> overall
>> the alignment shown by the usgs doesnt inspire
>> much
>> confidence
>> & i finally have to doubt if it is based on
>> anything
>> real
>> & to wonder if it isnt just someones wild
>> supposition
>> like the ignorant line we have seen down the
>> middle of
>> the delu condo on some maps
>>
>> & so i think it entirely possible at this point
>> that
>> njpa isnt a state line at all but a ribbon of
>> condo
>> & thus that njnypa isnt at all as shown on either
>> scale of the usgs topos
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
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