bloops
i see i transposed east & west in one passage of the earlier version of this message
but i trust you knew what i meant anyway
here it is corrected below just in case
ahh sydlexia
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, aletheia kallos <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
>
> thanx pal
> tho i keep jack parsells book here with me in the
> flesh at all times
>
> & of course it is a big help as usual
>
> in this case it says
> the big monument says
> on the nj side
> south 64 degrees west
> 72 & a quarter feet from this
> is the tri state rock
> which is the northwest end of the ny & nj boundary &
> the north end of the nj & pa boundary
> &
> on the ny side
> the corner between ny & pa is in the center of the
> delaware river
> 475 feet due west of the tri state rock
>
>
> & it is this text that gives the lie to & indeed
> trumps the trifinial diagram that is shown on the tri
> state rock that it witnesses & points toward
>
> for in that diagram
> which is also nicely shown in the book
> the nypa line does not turn due west from the njny
> terminal point
> to give ny its proper 209 degree pie slice as
> correctly shown only on the 100k scale topo
> but it is actually shown pivoting slightly in the
> wrong direction
> & thus erroneously indicating only about 170 degrees
> of the pie for ny
>
> & i am pretty sure its depiction of the njpa line is
> likewise mistaken
> whether njpa proves to be a legal condo or not
> & that only its depiction of the njny line is
> technically accurate
>
>
> in the meantime too i have done some more checking
> & have learned that the njpa line is widely presumed
> to run down the middle of the delaware
> but that the river is in fact at least a joint njpa
> police jurisdiction from bank to bank
> all the way from new york to delaware
> whether it proves to be a true territorial condo or
> not
>
> & if it does prove to be a territorial condo from bank
> to bank
> as the 1783 agreement seems to say & as i believe has
> never been changed but only forgotten
> perhaps
> then the tri state rock marks the northeast corner of this
> condo & the west end of the njnypa triline
> aka nj&ny&njpa
> &
> your mentioned point in the middle of the river 475
> feet due west of the tri state rock marks the west end
> of the njnypa triline
> aka ny&pa&njpa
> while the northwest corner of the condo is farther due
> west on the pennsylvania bank
>
>
> & the correspondingly presumptive denjpa triline btw
> down at the other end of the condo
> unlike the njnypa triline that runs only halfway
> across the river to the mentioned nypa corner
> would appear to run from shore to shore at low tide
> because the delaware arc does
>
>
> another interesting detail in this connection
> or rather the lack of a detail
> is that i cant find now nor can i recall ever having
> seen a njpa state line sign in the middle of any
> delaware river bridge
> but only welcome signs at the respective ends of those
> bridges
>
> not that finding one would necessarily prove anything
> but not finding any is rather suspicious
>
> or i should say auspicious
> for a condo
>
>
> & finally
> we have always found it very peculiar at njnypa to
> find pa on the left bank at all
> havent we
>
> & in the absence of any legal text placing it there
> so far
> the only possible reason i can think of for anyone to
> have ever marked it there is
> to acknowledge not that pa proper has crossed the
> river
> but rather only that a njpa condominial territory
> extends all the way across
>
>
> so at this point
> i must say
> i am fairly itching to run down there to port jervis
> again
> if just to correct the trifinial diagram on the rock
> with my magic marker
>
>
> --- Jack Parsell <jparsell@t...> wrote:
>
> > With reference to the the July 6, 2005 message, you
> > can refresh your memory
> > by going to Brian Butler's site,
> > www.bjbsoftware.com/corners and clicking on
> > the NJ-NY-PA location on the map. From that page
> > click on "Jack Parsell's book"
> > and you will find a paragraph giving the wording of
> > the inscriptions on the big
> > monument.
> >
> > Jack
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: aletheia kallos
> > To: boundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:01 AM
> > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] yikes could njpa be a
> > condo & thus njnypa & denjpa trilines rather than
> > tripoints
> >
> >
> > you may recall spooky mikes recent revisit to
> > njnypa &
> > his illustrated question about it
> >
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18068
> > which precipitated this also illustrated
> > advancement
> > in the state of play there
> >
> >
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7397
> > but left us with these messy questions
> >
> >
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7399
> > & finally led to this new hypothesis for a revised
> > trifinial diagram
> >
> >
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7402
> >
> > well i didnt realize it at the time
> > but have just noticed that simply by shifting at
> > topozone from the 24k scale 1981 topo to the 100k
> > scale 1986 topo of the same location
> >
> >
> http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?
z=18&n=4578304&e=525499&s=50&size=s&datum=nad83&layer=DRG100
> > there is already confirmation that the usgs must
> > have
> > soon realized its own mistake
> > & the correction here shows nypa proceeding due
> > west
> > from the njnypa tristates monument
> >
> > & thats very gratifying already because it
> > confirms
> > that new york does indeed occupy the full 209
> > degree
> > slice of the pie that was hypothesized there
> > rather
> > than only the 180 degrees of it shown on both the
> > tri
> > states rock diagram & the 24k topo
> >
> > & here on book page 522 aka pdf page 31
> >
> >
> http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf
> > or
> >
> >
> http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1j59s4Dl81QJ:www.libraries.psu.edu/do/
digitalbookshelf/26914833/
26914833_part_14.pdf+%22delaware+river%22+%22concurrent+jurisdiction%22+%22new
+jersey%22+pennsylvania&hl=en&client=safari
> > is further confirmation that nypa proceeds due
> > west
> > from the njnypa tri states monument
> > to the center of the main channel of the river
> > or in other words exactly as stated on the nearby
> > 1882
> > nypa witness marker
> > rather than wnw as depicted by the trifinial
> > diagram
> > upon it
> >
> > but it is also noteworthy that this text provides
> > besides the specs of the nypa alignment within the
> > river from nj to pane
> > the proviso of concurrent nypa jurisdiction
> > everywhere
> > between the banks
> >
> > & that in itself is not really a territorial
> > condominium
> > nor is it even a very unusual policing arrangement
> > on
> > border rivers
> > tho it has its problems
> > as mentioned here about halfway down the page
> > following footnote 602 in the text
> >
> > http://www.constitution.org/cmt/stimson/con_crim.htm
> > where the concurrent njpa jurisdiction established
> > in
> > 1783 is coincidentally cited as an example
> >
> > which got me to thinking further
> > or rather jogged my memory back to text of that
> > agreement as cited in bus&ss
> > which says
> > in digest
> > the delaware river
> > from the nw corner of nj down to the place where
> > the
> > circular boundary of delaware touches it
> > is a common highway equally free & open for the
> > use
> > benefit & advantage of both nj & pa
> > &
> > each state shall enjoy & exercise a concurrent
> > jurisdiction within & upon the water
> > tho not upon the islands
> > all of which are assigned by name to the nearer
> > state
> > per the text & a 1786 addendum
> >
> > but that is evidently all she ever really wrote
> > for njpa
> >
> > yep thats right
> > concurrent jurisdiction just like that described
> > above
> > for the nypa sector of the delaware
> > except it seems
> > no njpa state line was ever specified within the
> > river
> > in this case as the nypa state line later was
> >
> > & looking for subsequent njpa agreements that
> > could
> > have clarified or added such a delineation
> > i find none
> > tho it may be telling that there is a 1934 joint
> > njpa
> > toll bridge commission
> >
> >
> http://ssl.csg.org/compactlaws/delawareriverjointollbridge.html
> > which doesnt mention any state line within the
> > river
> > but resorts to weird circumlocutions like
> > the bucks phila county line in pennsylvania as
> > extended across the river to the nj shore
> >
> > but the question then arises
> > if there is no real njpa delineation other than
> > the
> > river as a whole between ny & de
> > then what to make of the njpa state line depicted
> > within the river by usgs maping
> >
> > like where did that even come from
> >
> > & i cant answer that question yet
> >
> > i did study the whole thing from njnypa to denjpa
> > tho
> > on the 24k scale
> > & discovered a few things
> >
> > first
> > the usgs does get the distribution of all the
> > islands
> > mentioned in the 1780s compacts all right
> > but then divides right down the middle various
> > other
> > islands evidently not mentioned there
> > yet often diverges from the middle of the main
> > channel
> > as if it might be following a thalweg
> > but then in other places is shown outside the
> > navigational channel entirely
> > nor is it ever indicated as being indefinite
> > anywhere
> > but merely behaves uncertain & haphazard
> > & in one place it even crosses a peninsula jutting
> > out
> > from the nj side
> >
> > in other words
> > overall
> > the alignment shown by the usgs doesnt inspire
> > much
> > confidence
> > & i finally have to doubt if it is based on
> > anything
> > real
> > & to wonder if it isnt just someones wild
> > supposition
> > like the ignorant line we have seen down the
> > middle of
> > the delu condo on some maps
> >
> > & so i think it entirely possible at this point
> > that
> > njpa isnt a state line at all but a ribbon of
> > condo
> > & thus that njnypa isnt at all as shown on either
> > scale of the usgs topos
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com
>