Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] yikes could njpa be a condo & thus njnypa & denjpa trilines rather than tripoints
Date: Dec 28, 2005 @ 14:55
Author: aletheia kallos (aletheia kallos <aletheiak@...>)
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> With reference to the the July 6, 2005 message, youhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18068
> can refresh your memory
> by going to Brian Butler's site,
> www.bjbsoftware.com/corners and clicking on
> the NJ-NY-PA location on the map. From that page
> click on "Jack Parsell's book"
> and you will find a paragraph giving the wording of
> the inscriptions on the big
> monument.
>
> Jack
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: aletheia kallos
> To: boundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 2:01 AM
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] yikes could njpa be a
> condo & thus njnypa & denjpa trilines rather than
> tripoints
>
>
> you may recall spooky mikes recent revisit to
> njnypa &
> his illustrated question about it
>
>
> which precipitated this also illustratedhttp://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7397
> advancement
> in the state of play there
>
>
> but left us with these messy questionshttp://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7399
>
>
> & finally led to this new hypothesis for a revisedhttp://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/7402
> trifinial diagram
>
>
>http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4578304&e=525499&s=50&size=s&datum=nad83&layer=DRG100
> well i didnt realize it at the time
> but have just noticed that simply by shifting at
> topozone from the 24k scale 1981 topo to the 100k
> scale 1986 topo of the same location
>
>
> there is already confirmation that the usgs musthttp://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf
> have
> soon realized its own mistake
> & the correction here shows nypa proceeding due
> west
> from the njnypa tristates monument
>
> & thats very gratifying already because it
> confirms
> that new york does indeed occupy the full 209
> degree
> slice of the pie that was hypothesized there
> rather
> than only the 180 degrees of it shown on both the
> tri
> states rock diagram & the 24k topo
>
> & here on book page 522 aka pdf page 31
>
>
> orhttp://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1j59s4Dl81QJ:www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/26914833/26914833_part_14.pdf+%22delaware+river%22+%22concurrent+jurisdiction%22+%22new+jersey%22+pennsylvania&hl=en&client=safari
>
>
> is further confirmation that nypa proceeds duehttp://ssl.csg.org/compactlaws/delawareriverjointollbridge.html
> west
> from the njnypa tri states monument
> to the center of the main channel of the river
> or in other words exactly as stated on the nearby
> 1882
> nypa witness marker
> rather than wnw as depicted by the trifinial
> diagram
> upon it
>
> but it is also noteworthy that this text provides
> besides the specs of the nypa alignment within the
> river from nj to pane
> the proviso of concurrent nypa jurisdiction
> everywhere
> between the banks
>
> & that in itself is not really a territorial
> condominium
> nor is it even a very unusual policing arrangement
> on
> border rivers
> tho it has its problems
> as mentioned here about halfway down the page
> following footnote 602 in the text
>
> http://www.constitution.org/cmt/stimson/con_crim.htm
> where the concurrent njpa jurisdiction established
> in
> 1783 is coincidentally cited as an example
>
> which got me to thinking further
> or rather jogged my memory back to text of that
> agreement as cited in bus&ss
> which says
> in digest
> the delaware river
> from the nw corner of nj down to the place where
> the
> circular boundary of delaware touches it
> is a common highway equally free & open for the
> use
> benefit & advantage of both nj & pa
> &
> each state shall enjoy & exercise a concurrent
> jurisdiction within & upon the water
> tho not upon the islands
> all of which are assigned by name to the nearer
> state
> per the text & a 1786 addendum
>
> but that is evidently all she ever really wrote
> for njpa
>
> yep thats right
> concurrent jurisdiction just like that described
> above
> for the nypa sector of the delaware
> except it seems
> no njpa state line was ever specified within the
> river
> in this case as the nypa state line later was
>
> & looking for subsequent njpa agreements that
> could
> have clarified or added such a delineation
> i find none
> tho it may be telling that there is a 1934 joint
> njpa
> toll bridge commission
>
>
> which doesnt mention any state line within the=== message truncated ===
> river
> but resorts to weird circumlocutions like
> the bucks phila county line in pennsylvania as
> extended across the river to the nj shore
>
> but the question then arises
> if there is no real njpa delineation other than
> the
> river as a whole between ny & de
> then what to make of the njpa state line depicted
> within the river by usgs maping
>
> like where did that even come from
>
> & i cant answer that question yet
>
> i did study the whole thing from njnypa to denjpa
> tho
> on the 24k scale
> & discovered a few things
>
> first
> the usgs does get the distribution of all the
> islands
> mentioned in the 1780s compacts all right
> but then divides right down the middle various
> other
> islands evidently not mentioned there
> yet often diverges from the middle of the main
> channel
> as if it might be following a thalweg
> but then in other places is shown outside the
> navigational channel entirely
> nor is it ever indicated as being indefinite
> anywhere
> but merely behaves uncertain & haphazard
> & in one place it even crosses a peninsula jutting
> out
> from the nj side
>
> in other words
> overall
> the alignment shown by the usgs doesnt inspire
> much
> confidence
> & i finally have to doubt if it is based on
> anything
> real
> & to wonder if it isnt just someones wild
> supposition
> like the ignorant line we have seen down the
> middle of
> the delu condo on some maps
>
> & so i think it entirely possible at this point
> that
> njpa isnt a state line at all but a ribbon of
> condo
> & thus that njnypa isnt at all as shown on either
> scale of the usgs topos
>