Revisiting these two Spanish tripoints from the comfort
of my computer and the internet I have a lot more information to share now.
Regrettably this means that I am now convinced that NEITHER of my two "finds"
last September were actually of tripoints. :(
I have found the following evidence that makes it quite
clear that the actual tripoint is, indeed, some distance to the north west of
the road where I had stopped and taken the pictures that are at http://tinyurl.com/baglc, including ones of
the supposed tripoint "mojón" which is obviously in the wrong
place.
First I have found various topographical maps published
by various agencies as follows:
Now I have also found a wonderful site from the Spanish
Ministry of Agriculture that has very detailed land division information
superimposed on aerial photographs - this is at http://www.mapa.es/es/sig/pags/sigpac/intro.htm#inicio and
leads you to various sites for each of the autonomous communities in Spain, some
of which have better information than others.
First looking at the info from Navarra (http://sigpac.tracasa.es/navegar/)
we can see in http://tinyurl.com/c8w8y
the boundary of Navarra superimposed on a photo from 2003. In http://tinyurl.com/7zvv6 we have the same
information on a photo from earlier (interesting to note the change in
vegetation around the area of the tripoint during this
interim period). It is also very interesting to note that the boundaries do
not appear to be as straight as marked on the topo maps but tend to jog around
quite a lot.
However, adding in the info from La Rioja (http://sigpac.larioja.org/visor/) in
picture http://tinyurl.com/7tuxr things
get a bit confusing because if you now compare all three images you see that the
little triangle shown on the Aragón picture crossing the railway overlaps with
the land apparently claimed by Navarra thus raising the possibility that the
actual tripoint is just south of the railway.
So another visit is most definitely called for - I hope
to get back there in early May next year when I have another possible visit to
Spain in the works.
Now - turning our attention a few km down the road to
es2arcllo (Aragón, Castilla-León, La Rioja) which I had thought I had found
at the roadside:
Looking at topo map http://tinyurl.com/brcqh (1:50000) it
appears that the tripoint is not by the roadside at all but some distance to the
east. This would explain the fact that there were only two readable province
names on the marker I found at the roadside and why they were apparently
inconsistently placed for marking a tripoint (I was led astray by the fact that
this was a triangular cross section marker)
To confirm this lets look at some aerial
photos:
http://tinyurl.com/caqdw is from La Rioja
(unfortunately there is no actual photo at the probable tripoint although
boundaries are shown) and http://tinyurl.com/7zys7 is from
Aragón and http://tinyurl.com/933th from
Castilla-León. These three photos tend confirm the information from the
topo map and appear consistent and indicate that the tripoint is approximately
where the track starts to turn towards the south on the right of the pictures.
Once more it appears that the actual borders are a lot more "wiggly" than shown
on the topo maps. So, again, another visit is called for
here.
--- Hugh Wallis <hugh@...>
wrote:
> I think you just said the same as what I said when
I
> said "When I reached
> the appropriate spot on the road I
searched around
> for any kind of marker
> some distance either
side of the road but was unable
> to locate one. What I
> did
locate was all on the road itself. From these
> conflicting pieces
of
> evidence it is is not possible, therefore, to
> determine
accurately exactly
> where the tripoint is
located."
whoops
misunderstanding in process
for i didnt mean
some distance in either direction
generally
but rather
specifically
in accordance with this best available map
http://www.larioja.org/sig/imagenes/5000/25tp2927.gif
unless
i am misreading it or misinterpreting some of
the other data
between 110
& 137 meters up the bank & thru those
lovely woods
on a bearing
somewhere between n13w & n39w from the
roadstone
or
averaging these ranges for starters & ease &
simplicity
make
that about 124 meters bearing about n26w from the
roadstone
& only
then fanning out & beating the bushes if
necessary for 15 or 20 meters
in all directions
alternatively
get a gps fix on the target point
directly from this
map if possible
but i think you might still have to
beat the bushes in
that case too
so there might not be any advantage to
doing it that
way
nor do i think it would just be a matter of luck
but
of technique first & perhaps then luck too
but in any
case you fully deserve our highest congrats
& thanx for having made
this try at es2arcllo &
posting this beautiful report
which was the
first known one of its kind in & indeed
from spain
as well as for
your evidently luckier hit at es2arcala
just down the road
also the
first of its kind
> Maybe someone else will have better luck,
if indeed
> there is another
> physical marker in existence that I
could not find.
>
>
> _____
>
> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of aletheia
kallos
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:35 AM
> To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] RE:
[borderpoint] Re:
> Spanish provincial
> tripoint marker... or
not
>
>
> understood but official map evidence
generally
> trumps
> all other data
> unless it is proved
wrong by onsite investigation
> or by better official data
> such
as the legal text etc
>
> it is clear you have a tripoint
indicator of some
> sort
> there
> just as peter & jim
supposed in the part of the
> message that has been truncated
below
> for i dont think that was ever very seriously in
>
question
>
> nor are indirect & or ceremonial markers
terribly
> rare
> for that matter
>
> but it isnt at
all clear that you have
> t h e
> official
> direct
> onsite
> tripoint
> mojon
>
> for that to
be clear
> or to even become a reasonable inference or
>
plausible
> guess
> the tripoint position precisely indicated on
the
> best
> available maps still needs to be checked
&
> positively
> eliminated
>
> --- Hugh Wallis
<hugh@...> wrote:
>
> > >>the fact
that the railway is abandoned doesnt at
> > all
> >
necessarily mean that the legal position of the
> > tripoint adjacent
to the railway & shown on the
> best
> > available &
current official maps has also been
> > abandoned with
it<<
> >
> > That was just a casual comment for
informational
> > purposes - it was not
> > intended that
any inference about the tripoint
> > should be drawn from it
>
>
> > Cheers
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of aletheia
kallos
> > Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 9:46 PM
> > To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] RE:
[borderpoint] Re:
> > Spanish provincial
> > tripoint
marker... or not
> >
> >
> > bravissimos &
vivas from me too hugh
> >
> > & i agree you must have
arcala the second one
> right
> > & that jimmy is
confused
> > but i also agree with him about arcllo the first
>
one
> >
> > because
> > the fact that the railway
is abandoned doesnt at
> all
> > necessarily mean that the
legal position of the
> > tripoint adjacent to the railway &
shown on the
> best
> > available & current official maps
has also been
> > abandoned with it
> >
> > ---
Hugh Wallis <hugh@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> The mojon I photoed is the same one that is
> > pictured
>
> > at
> > >
> >
>
http://www.albaiges.com/historia/historiatresreyes.htm
>
> > so I don't quite
> > > understand the comment about the
"third" (unless
> > you
> > > are referring to
the
> > > second one on my web page - but that is at a
>
> > different tripoint).
> > >
> > > I
searched around on both sides of the road for
> > > other ones but
found
> > > nothing. The railway is abandoned by the way.
>
> >
> > > I am in Madrid now so no chance of getting
back
> > > there (its about 300km away)
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > >
Hugh
> > >
> > >
> > >
_____
> > >
> > > From:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > >
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of jim van
dura
> > > Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 8:42 PM
> >
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com;
> > >
borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Cc:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint]
RE: [borderpoint]
> Re:
> > > Spanish provincial
>
> > tripoint marker... or not
> > >
> > >
> > > Beautifully done, Hugh! We thought there might
>
be
> > > two
> > > mojones, and here you have brought
us a third!
> > Nice
> > > to
> > > see they
have no sense of direction too! But did
> > you
> > > not
try to reach the real mojon also, as shown
> on
> > >
Peter's officially authoritative treasure map???
> > Or
> >
> are you still in close enough range to double
> back
> >
> for
> > > this coup de grace?
> > > Jimmy
>
> >
> > > --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@...>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Peter and Jimmy
>
> > >
> > > > I have visited this tripoint and
you can find
> > the
> > > > results of my
visit
> > > > documented at http://tinyurl.com/baglc
> > >
>
> > > > I have copied this to boundarypoint since
I
> have
> > > now
> > > > been reliably
informed
> > > > that is the correct place to discuss
>
tripointing
> > > and
> > > > I don't want to step
on
> > > > people's toes, being new and all :)
> >
> >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Hugh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _____
> > > >
>
=== message truncated
===
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