I would like to determine, from copies of treaties,
legislation or whatever, the exact line of the ONQC border. I had no success in
find this online earlier today. Not sure if it would be in Federal or Provincial
archives. The border was probably set at Confederation (July 1st, 1867) if not
before that (possibly even as far back as being defined as the border
between Upper and Lower Canada) - this will be interesting
research.
When I get time I will check the US and Canadian topos for
consistency as regards their depiction of the CAUS border but I think they are
bang on in agreement with each other. This will be easy to check in my
mapping software by marking the turn points on one map and seeing if they
coincide with those on the other map when it is loaded into the
software.
& at the same time
lets carry another
hypothesis
which is that canada is right naturally enough about nyonqc in
principle
but that the usa is right about caus because the only treaty text
we know of says so
& thus that the canadian mappers ate pied ibs coords
not wisely but too well
which would explain everything comfortably
as well as deliver us a better method for our madness
&
thus for a second & putatively closer nyonqc 10foot window
try
which forces our next play
which is to ask the ibs
for backup
& no problem since they do that
routinely
or
would you rather we just suspend the first
try based on the canadian version of caus
& cut directly to this hybrid
try
based on
treaty text
plus
usgs mapping
plus
canadian nyonqc
albeit necessarily a little fudged from your map in
that event
while perhaps also expecting that what we are actually
guessing at here is either some
statutory geoposition or a statutory
midseaway specification we will soon discover anyway
which it might
then become our necessity & honor to figure out how to geolocate for the
first time in history
but in the meantime i am going to make
the necessary new measurements & calculations
if i can for this second
hypothetical position
so please stand by
& or help frame the
query to the ibs
but also please chime in as much & as soon as
possible
with any corroborations objections news etc
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, aletheia kallos <aletheiak@y...>
wrote:
>
> yikes haha ok but this is the same map i began from
in
> the middle of
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18922
>
which has long since been truncated from the bottom of
> the present
thread
> hahaha
> so at least we are now fully on all the same
pages
>
> & i dont think it really is so hard to tell
exactly
> what this map is saying
> for tho it too is
truncated
> it clearly indicates & says by its placement of
words
> & border lines
> as you can see if you view the full
sheet here
> http://topozone.com/map.asp?
z=18&n=4983660&e=523103&s=100&size=l&u=6&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25
>
that nyonqc equals turnpoint 1
>
> but tho it does clearly say
that
> nevertheless
> your presumably more authoritative canadian
topo gives
> us good reason to believe it is clearly mistaken in
>
doing so
> just as are the many other maps i or we have seen
that
> also show it that way
> for example
> http://www.racquetteriver.org/akwesasnemap.htm
>
> moreover if you switch to the still more severely
> truncated
100k & 250k scale topozone versions
> there is still enough river
showing there to see that
> they repeat the mistakes of the 25k
version
> rather than correcting anything in the direction of
>
your again more presumably correct canadian topo
> at least regarding
the course of caus westward into
> the river from saint regis
>
but also regarding the nyoncq position
> as you can also see on a
nontruncated 100k version
> here
> http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?
t=2&s=14&x=164&y=1556&z=18&w=1&qs=%7chogansburg%7cnew+york%7c
>
> so i think it is clear what the usgs is saying but
> almost
equally clear that what it is saying is wrong
>
> or else we are
wrong to be so trustful of official
> canada
> but lets not think
so yet until we have played this
> out anyway
>
>
>
& let me also answer you here before proceeding with
> the analysis
that
> as you can also gather more clearly from the first
> link
above
> the reason the nydpw is named at the top of that topo
>
& in just that funny place of honor too
> is that it is being
credited there right alongside the
> dept of the interior & usgs as
a collaborator or
> contributor of data in that topo sheet
>
>
> but
> except for 1 or 2 inconvenient facts i am
coming to
> i think the analysis & try might proceed full
steam
> ahead already based on your 259 meter measurement on
> the
canadian topo from turnpoint 1 to nyonqc
> because
> we
apparently have the official ibs coords of the
> turnpoints shown on the
canadian topo to either side
> of nyonqc
> & which lend all
the more credence to its testimony
>
> as mentioned here
>
http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/coordinates/SECT-K-83.txt
>
turnpoint 1 is
> nad83 nlat45d00m22s6 x wlong74d40m13s9
> &
apparently the next point to the southeast on the
> other side of nyonqc
is
> nad83 nlat44d59m56s1 x wlong74d39m47s0
>
> but here is
the first really inconvenient fact
> for it appears that the ibs name
for this next
> turnpoint is
> mon andrew ellicott
>
> unless that simply means the lost ellicott rock is now
> out in
the river
>
> but then it is still most puzzling to learn that
thats
> where it might be
>
> however
> i am willing
to assume until we can check these facts
> or find better data
altogether
> that
> either
> the lost ellicott rock is
indeed out in the river now
> or
> much more likely
> the
labels but not the geocoords of the first 2 points
> on the list have
somehow gotten reversed
> perhaps just owing to some inadvertent slipup
> or even more likely because some well meaning soul
> figured
the word & point of origin must come at the
> beginning of the
series
> & couldnt leave it alone but had to correct it
into
> its present actually now incorrect form
>
> or
else
> these ibs data are even more pied than that
> & the
whole try based on them will go poof as soon as
> we realize how wrong
they are
>
>
> & i am willing to assume all this
because i met an old
> chief right there next to monument 774 in saint
regis
> who assured me the lost ellicott rock was indeed also
>
right there next to us under all the veggies on the
> riverbank
>
as he & his naturally silent & pushy dog helped us off
> his
land we were caught tresspassing on
>
> & this btw is the
monument referred to in bus&ss p13
> under treaty of ghent
1814
> where in describing the beginning of the saint
> lawrence
sector of caus it says
> in digest
> beginning at a stone monument
erected by andrew
> ellicott in 1817 on the south bank or shore of
the
> river now called saint lawrence which marks the point
>
where the 45th parallel strikes it
> & thence running north 35d45m
west into the river on a
> line at right angles with the southern shore
to a
> point 100 yards south of the opposite island called
>
cornwell
> thence turning westerly
> etc etc
>
>
which raises the mentioned second inconvenient fact
>
> for this
is more or less how the american maps do show
> it
>
yikes
> & not at all how your canadian topo shows it
>
yikes
> except
> the american angle is more like n45w than
the
> specified 35ish
> oops
> whereas the angle on the
canadian topo
> once it finally does turn northwest
> is indeed in
the right n35w ballpark
> yikes & oops
>
> so in order
to sidestep all that & continue to believe
> your canadian map might
still be right
> which i would still like to do even if only to
>
complete the try
> i have to hypothesize that an extra turn point
was
> added here between 1814 & the present
> between the
ellicott rock & turnpoint 1
> called now perhaps turnpoint 0 &
or origin by the ibs
> as well as that the bus&ss text must also
have
> committed one of its many typos in this supposedly
> 35d45m
northwest bearing
>
> both of which i also gladly do
>
making the whole try more & more provisional
> & less & less
probable
> yet still sustainable
>
>
> & since
you could measure the 259 meters all right
> i figure you can also
easily measure the rest of the
> caus leg shown there which it is part
of
>
> & then using
> & if possible also
confirming by measurement
> the above ibs coords for the 2 caus
turnpoints to
> either side of the nyonqc position on your topo
>
it would then take just some computation from there
> to get us into
the most probably correct 10 foot
> window for nyoncq as shown
there
>
>
> so let me just pause here to see if you
get & agree
> with this much
> & to see if you can advance
the measurements & do the
> computations to get us there
directly
> or if there are some other considerations i may have
>
missed
>
> --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...> wrote:
>
> > OK - found a collared version which extends north a
> >
bit - see attached.
> >
> > It is hard to tell
exactly what this map is saying
> > since there does appear
>
> to be a small line extending towards Canada at the
> > apex of
the border in the
> > river and no sign of the ONQC border meeting
the
> > international border
> > further southeast
(incidentally plotting this on the
> > Canadian map shows a
>
> distance difference of 259m). But then why would the
> > State
of New York
> > Department of Public Works care about the
exact
> > location of the ONQC border?
> > Clearly we need
to find the answer by reference to
> > Ontario and Québec
>
> sources since it is all about that provincial
> > border's
alignment and the USA
> > has no (official) interest in this.
>
>
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of Hugh
Wallis
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
> >
To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint]
nyonqc location was Re:
> > special congrats may be
> > in
order for czdepl improvement
> >
> >
> > OOPS -
forgot the attachment
> >
> > Unfortunately I have
been unable to obtain the
> > relevant USGS quad from
> > http://datagateway.nrcs.usda.gov
since o44074h6 is
> > cut off at 45 deg N (see
> > attached)
which is just south of this point and
> > there is no map
available
> > from that source immediately north of that. If
>
> anyone knows where I could
> > obtain the missing bit I would be
grateful. I will
> > continue to search
> >
meanwhile.
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> >
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of aletheia
kallos
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:45 AM
> >
To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint]
nyonqc location was Re:
> > special congrats may be
> > in
order for czdepl improvement
> >
> >
> > agreed
that skepticism is always a good idea
> > & i can add from some
experience
> > especially so for this nyonqc baby
> >
> > & for indian & third world mapping in general of
>
> course too
> >
> > so please dont put too fine a point
on my previous
> > best guess of
> > a couple hundred meters
toward the right bank etc
> >
> > &
> > thanx
to this your still more reliable looking but
> > essentially
identical map
> > which goes at least partway to the more
>
> authoritative
> > data i had been looking for
> > it
seems pretty likely now from their matching
> > depictions of the
onqc turnpoints & particularly
> > their
> > matching
slight overextension of onqc beyond nyonqc
> > into the usa
>
> that my maps were at least partly copied or
> >
generated
> > from yours
> > or rather lets say from the
same master as yours by
> > &
> > large
> >
> > but i am still following your advice & being
> >
skeptical
> > & just as skeptical of yours as of mine
>
> because of the glaringly mistaken caus jog yours
> >
takes
> > southwest from marker 774
> > rather than cutting
this directly nw from the
> > 45degree
> > sector terminal
& transition point
> > aka the lost ellicott rock
> >
to turnpoint 1 properly so called
> > as we know it should from the
ibc coords for the
> > markers & turnpoints
> > &
downtown personal experience
> >
> >
> > which
btw makes it totally impossible to take
> > advantage of the
improvement your official canadian
> > mapping represents for
purposes of refining this
> > guess
> >
> > up to
say 300 meters or 100 yards
> > hahahahaha
> > which
nevertheless i now emphatically do anyway
> > hahahaha
> >
after having combined & crunched all the data we
> > have
>
> so far developed
> > but relying especially & most
emphatically in this
> > case on indian mapping
> >
hahahaha
> > rather than the luxuries of either canadian
first
> > world or american second world mapping
> >
hahahhahahaha
> > hahahahahahaha
> > ahhhhhhh
> >
> > & in fact i would even like to wheedle that up to
>
> roughly 302 meters now
> > back toward the ellicott rock
> > from the 10 foot square window represented by
> >
turnpoint 1
> > with tears rolling down my cheeks
> >
because after synthesizing as much presumptive
> > accuracy as
possible from all 3 worlds
> > thats exactly where i land
>
>
> > & i both trust it & am skeptical of it to
that
> > extent
> >
> > & since we know the
geocoords of the ellicott rock &
> > turnpoint 1 in
degminsecdec
> > i think you might even be able to coax my
position
> > out
> > of your gps calculator faster than i
can get it
> > manually with pencil & paper after reinventing
or
> > supplying the necessary spherical trig
> > which i
will now proceed to do
> > but i am posting this now without delay in
case you
> > or
> > anyone else who has been following this
would like
> > to
> > join the chase & the race to
presumptive caus2nyonqc
> > at 10 foot range
> >
>
>
> > & i would also appreciate the backup of the
>
> computational doublecheck
> > even if you dont race but only
chase
> >
> > --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@o...>
wrote:
> >
> > > I would be very sceptical of placing
much/any
> > > reliance on that map for
> > > detailed
and highly precise navigation purposes.
> > > There is no evidence
that
> > > it is the output of proper surveying or
reference
> > to
> > > official
> > >
documents/treaties etc., and I would suggest that
> > > there is
significant
> > > cartographic production latitude employed to
make
> > it
> > > look nice and pretty
> > >
(and perfectly useful for most purposes).
> > >
>
> > I don't have the USGS quad for that area (but will
> > >
get it shortly) but
> > > attached is the relevant section from
the Canadian
> > > Government 1:50000 topo
> > > for
reference.
> > >
> > >
> > >
_____
> > >
> > > From:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > >
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of
aletheiak
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:44 AM
>
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject:
[BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> > > special congrats may
be in
> > > order for czdepl improvement
> > >
> > >
> > > agreed & no biggie in any
case
> > > but a really interesting upshot of all this is
the
> > > following pair of more
> > > detailed &
reliable
> > > looking maps of nyonqc than i have ever
seen
> > before
> >
> === message truncated
===
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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