yikes haha ok but this is the same map i began from in
the middle of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/message/18922
which has long since been truncated from the bottom of
the present thread
hahaha
so at least we are now fully on all the same pages
& i dont think it really is so hard to tell exactly
what this map is saying
for tho it too is truncated
it clearly indicates & says by its placement of words
& border lines
as you can see if you view the full sheet here
http://topozone.com/map.asp?z=18&n=4983660&e=523103&s=100&size=l&u=6&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25
that nyonqc equals turnpoint 1
but tho it does clearly say that
nevertheless
your presumably more authoritative canadian topo gives
us good reason to believe it is clearly mistaken in
doing so
just as are the many other maps i or we have seen that
also show it that way
for example
http://www.racquetteriver.org/akwesasnemap.htm
moreover if you switch to the still more severely
truncated 100k & 250k scale topozone versions
there is still enough river showing there to see that
they repeat the mistakes of the 25k version
rather than correcting anything in the direction of
your again more presumably correct canadian topo
at least regarding the course of caus westward into
the river from saint regis
but also regarding the nyoncq position
as you can also see on a nontruncated 100k version
here
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=2&s=14&x=164&y=1556&z=18&w=1&qs=%7chogansburg%7cnew+york%7c
so i think it is clear what the usgs is saying but
almost equally clear that what it is saying is wrong
or else we are wrong to be so trustful of official
canada
but lets not think so yet until we have played this
out anyway
& let me also answer you here before proceeding with
the analysis that
as you can also gather more clearly from the first
link above
the reason the nydpw is named at the top of that topo
& in just that funny place of honor too
is that it is being credited there right alongside the
dept of the interior & usgs as a collaborator or
contributor of data in that topo sheet
but
except for 1 or 2 inconvenient facts i am coming to
i think the analysis & try might proceed full steam
ahead already based on your 259 meter measurement on
the canadian topo from turnpoint 1 to nyonqc
because
we apparently have the official ibs coords of the
turnpoints shown on the canadian topo to either side
of nyonqc
& which lend all the more credence to its testimony
as mentioned here
http://www.internationalboundarycommission.org/coordinates/SECT-K-83.txt
turnpoint 1 is
nad83 nlat45d00m22s6 x wlong74d40m13s9
& apparently the next point to the southeast on the
other side of nyonqc is
nad83 nlat44d59m56s1 x wlong74d39m47s0
but here is the first really inconvenient fact
for it appears that the ibs name for this next
turnpoint is
mon andrew ellicott
unless that simply means the lost ellicott rock is now
out in the river
but then it is still most puzzling to learn that thats
where it might be
however
i am willing to assume until we can check these facts
or find better data altogether
that
either
the lost ellicott rock is indeed out in the river now
or
much more likely
the labels but not the geocoords of the first 2 points
on the list have somehow gotten reversed
perhaps just owing to some inadvertent slipup
or even more likely because some well meaning soul
figured the word & point of origin must come at the
beginning of the series
& couldnt leave it alone but had to correct it into
its present actually now incorrect form
or else
these ibs data are even more pied than that
& the whole try based on them will go poof as soon as
we realize how wrong they are
& i am willing to assume all this because i met an old
chief right there next to monument 774 in saint regis
who assured me the lost ellicott rock was indeed also
right there next to us under all the veggies on the
riverbank
as he & his naturally silent & pushy dog helped us off
his land we were caught tresspassing on
& this btw is the monument referred to in bus&ss p13
under treaty of ghent 1814
where in describing the beginning of the saint
lawrence sector of caus it says
in digest
beginning at a stone monument erected by andrew
ellicott in 1817 on the south bank or shore of the
river now called saint lawrence which marks the point
where the 45th parallel strikes it
& thence running north 35d45m west into the river on a
line at right angles with the southern shore to a
point 100 yards south of the opposite island called
cornwell
thence turning westerly
etc etc
which raises the mentioned second inconvenient fact
for this is more or less how the american maps do show
it
yikes
& not at all how your canadian topo shows it
yikes
except
the american angle is more like n45w than the
specified 35ish
oops
whereas the angle on the canadian topo
once it finally does turn northwest
is indeed in the right n35w ballpark
yikes & oops
so in order to sidestep all that & continue to believe
your canadian map might still be right
which i would still like to do even if only to
complete the try
i have to hypothesize that an extra turn point was
added here between 1814 & the present
between the ellicott rock & turnpoint 1
called now perhaps turnpoint 0 & or origin by the ibs
as well as that the bus&ss text must also have
committed one of its many typos in this supposedly
35d45m northwest bearing
both of which i also gladly do
making the whole try more & more provisional
& less & less probable
yet still sustainable
& since you could measure the 259 meters all right
i figure you can also easily measure the rest of the
caus leg shown there which it is part of
& then using
& if possible also confirming by measurement
the above ibs coords for the 2 caus turnpoints to
either side of the nyonqc position on your topo
it would then take just some computation from there
to get us into the most probably correct 10 foot
window for nyoncq as shown there
so let me just pause here to see if you get & agree
with this much
& to see if you can advance the measurements & do the
computations to get us there directly
or if there are some other considerations i may have
missed
--- Hugh Wallis <
hugh@...> wrote:
> OK - found a collared version which extends north a
> bit - see attached.
>
> It is hard to tell exactly what this map is saying
> since there does appear
> to be a small line extending towards Canada at the
> apex of the border in the
> river and no sign of the ONQC border meeting the
> international border
> further southeast (incidentally plotting this on the
> Canadian map shows a
> distance difference of 259m). But then why would the
> State of New York
> Department of Public Works care about the exact
> location of the ONQC border?
> Clearly we need to find the answer by reference to
> Ontario and Québec
> sources since it is all about that provincial
> border's alignment and the USA
> has no (official) interest in this.
>
>
> _____
>
> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Hugh Wallis
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 10:31 AM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> special congrats may be
> in order for czdepl improvement
>
>
> OOPS - forgot the attachment
>
> Unfortunately I have been unable to obtain the
> relevant USGS quad from
> http://datagateway.nrcs.usda.gov since o44074h6 is
> cut off at 45 deg N (see
> attached) which is just south of this point and
> there is no map available
> from that source immediately north of that. If
> anyone knows where I could
> obtain the missing bit I would be grateful. I will
> continue to search
> meanwhile.
>
>
> _____
>
> From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:45 AM
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> special congrats may be
> in order for czdepl improvement
>
>
> agreed that skepticism is always a good idea
> & i can add from some experience
> especially so for this nyonqc baby
>
> & for indian & third world mapping in general of
> course too
>
> so please dont put too fine a point on my previous
> best guess of
> a couple hundred meters toward the right bank etc
>
> &
> thanx to this your still more reliable looking but
> essentially identical map
> which goes at least partway to the more
> authoritative
> data i had been looking for
> it seems pretty likely now from their matching
> depictions of the onqc turnpoints & particularly
> their
> matching slight overextension of onqc beyond nyonqc
> into the usa
> that my maps were at least partly copied or
> generated
> from yours
> or rather lets say from the same master as yours by
> &
> large
>
> but i am still following your advice & being
> skeptical
> & just as skeptical of yours as of mine
> because of the glaringly mistaken caus jog yours
> takes
> southwest from marker 774
> rather than cutting this directly nw from the
> 45degree
> sector terminal & transition point
> aka the lost ellicott rock
> to turnpoint 1 properly so called
> as we know it should from the ibc coords for the
> markers & turnpoints
> & downtown personal experience
>
>
> which btw makes it totally impossible to take
> advantage of the improvement your official canadian
> mapping represents for purposes of refining this
> guess
>
> up to say 300 meters or 100 yards
> hahahahaha
> which nevertheless i now emphatically do anyway
> hahahaha
> after having combined & crunched all the data we
> have
> so far developed
> but relying especially & most emphatically in this
> case on indian mapping
> hahahaha
> rather than the luxuries of either canadian first
> world or american second world mapping
> hahahhahahaha
> hahahahahahaha
> ahhhhhhh
>
> & in fact i would even like to wheedle that up to
> roughly 302 meters now
> back toward the ellicott rock
> from the 10 foot square window represented by
> turnpoint 1
> with tears rolling down my cheeks
> because after synthesizing as much presumptive
> accuracy as possible from all 3 worlds
> thats exactly where i land
>
> & i both trust it & am skeptical of it to that
> extent
>
> & since we know the geocoords of the ellicott rock &
> turnpoint 1 in degminsecdec
> i think you might even be able to coax my position
> out
> of your gps calculator faster than i can get it
> manually with pencil & paper after reinventing or
> supplying the necessary spherical trig
> which i will now proceed to do
> but i am posting this now without delay in case you
> or
> anyone else who has been following this would like
> to
> join the chase & the race to presumptive caus2nyonqc
> at 10 foot range
>
>
> & i would also appreciate the backup of the
> computational doublecheck
> even if you dont race but only chase
>
> --- Hugh Wallis <hugh@...> wrote:
>
> > I would be very sceptical of placing much/any
> > reliance on that map for
> > detailed and highly precise navigation purposes.
> > There is no evidence that
> > it is the output of proper surveying or reference
> to
> > official
> > documents/treaties etc., and I would suggest that
> > there is significant
> > cartographic production latitude employed to make
> it
> > look nice and pretty
> > (and perfectly useful for most purposes).
> >
> > I don't have the USGS quad for that area (but will
> > get it shortly) but
> > attached is the relevant section from the Canadian
> > Government 1:50000 topo
> > for reference.
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of aletheiak
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:44 AM
> > To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [BoundaryPoint] nyonqc location was Re:
> > special congrats may be in
> > order for czdepl improvement
> >
> >
> > agreed & no biggie in any case
> > but a really interesting upshot of all this is the
> > following pair of more
> > detailed & reliable
> > looking maps of nyonqc than i have ever seen
> before
>
=== message truncated ===
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