Thanks - these are most helpful
responses
wowww & thanxxx hugh for these 2 beautiful questions
&
concluding delicacy
intertwingling ahead
--- Hugh
Wallis <hugh@...> wrote:
> Just curious - given
the uncertainty about the exact
> location expressed in
> your
analysis, Mike, how would you determine/measure
> "success" when you
say
> "i can only look forward all the more eagerly to our
> first
amphibious try
> here because there is now every reason to make one
&
> expect it will be
> successful "
of course with
most any amphibious or class b try
which btw is the best class of visit
that can normally
be paid at an unmarked point
whether wet or dry
it is a matter of the beingness & beeingness spelled
by the letter
b
rather than of the absoluteness that characterizes a
marker arrival
& culminating apex touch
as in the class & letter of a
&
i might insert here that even a supposedly class a
marker touch visit may
actually be less than absolute
if the rock is dilapidating or loose enough
to be
displaced or the tripoint location on the marker is
unclear or
unnoticed
so these 2 classes or categories are not entirely but
only
very nearly rigid & mutually exclusive
since a point usually either is
or is not directly &
clearly marked
& a try is very rarely in
the tiny gray zone between
these black & white alternatives
but
anyway
the successful amphibious class b visit i am
visualizing &
foreseeing here
is characterized by basically making a beeline to
&
then actually & consciously being at the very
tripoint
position
to the very best of both ones knowledge & ones
ability
to get there
however momentary the arrival &
culmination
since for example the force of the river might be
rushing
the try a little
or the iciness of the water
etc
etc
moreover this particular czdepl class b try is not
absolute
but only relative & provisional in the following
additional
significant ways
as mentioned
we havent yet actually seen any of the
treaties
but are making only the most educated possible guesses
from
what we do have
such as pretty good maps & a familiarity with
standard
border river practice
& thus our best guessed determination
of the position
does involve some inferences at this time
& as you
also reiterate at the end
it is also our best guess that the tripoint
isnt
stationary but to some small extent mobile anyway
so
the
success of the try could only be registered in the
ephemeral moment point
in any case
rather than being something you could say you had done
for
all time
or even for any substantial duration of time
but still
with
a retractable tape measure i do believe i could
successfully find the best
guessed & most probable
square foot or so into which to insert my body
on any
given day
or more likely just get pushed across this window
of
truth by the current in the present case
at the midriver point
transversely perpendicular to
the creek mouth center
& i would
say in that case that i had successfully
accomplished a very probable class
b visit
& indeed the best available & best known visit to
this
point
until somebody did better
say
by actually finding the
treaties & learning they dont
say this at all
hahahaha
or yikes
by finding a marker in the stream bed
etc etc
it is really just a
matter of discerning & enacting
finer & finer probable
truths
> This raises the question of whether you or
anyone
> else here are aware of any
> similar wet tripoints being
defined legally in some
> more precise (and
> stationary) manner
such as by means of providing
> Lat/Long coordinates
> according
to some datum
yes many but to begin with a few wetpoints are
known
to be solidly marked underwater
& thus can surely be called
stationary & permanent
& there are tethered buoys too like the
official one
at algrmk
or the bp approved but unofficial one bill &
jc & i
placed approximately at glhemaokpa
& there are
various fixed geocoordinated points
established but not marked in waters
but with varying degrees of precision
from as coarse as integral
degminsec traditionally
like nazm or the eez tripoints
to as fine as 5
digits of degminsecdec lately
& these points do trump the living
variable points on
midlines thalwegs shorelines etc
provided that the
treaties say they do
(as distinct from your
> speculated method
in this
> case involving fluvial mid lines which necessarily
>
will change over time) ?.
this is indeed the extreme delicacy of the
entire
situation
for of course everything is changing over time
&
one can only earnestly be & seek & imagine & try etc
in the
present
& i do hope these responses satisfy you
because it
is clear that you are earnestly being
seeking imagining & trying as
much as anyone
for which i sincerely thank you too
> From:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
>
[mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of aletheia
kallos
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 8:21 AM
> To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: special
congrats
> may be in order for czdepl
> improvement
>
>
> bravo mike & thanx
>
> i think what is
clear now with benefit of your pic
> 17a
> is that when you shot
19a you were either zooming &
> or
> more likely practically
leaning out over the river
> to
> get such a tight shot of the
creek mouth
>
> so even without getting wet
> you could
well have been closer to the true tripoint
> at that moment than anyone
reporting here has ever
> reached or indicated before
>
>
> but what is also extremely interesting in what you
> bring now
is that
> tho it is necessary to use ones imagination to
>
determine the true tripoint position
> & tho the tripoint is
imaginary as you say
> in the sense that it isnt directly
marked
> it is nevertheless legally defined with considerable
>
exactitude
> as the point in the middle of the neisse where it
is
> met by the middle of this creek
>
> or so i do believe
> tho i admit i still havent actually seen any of the
> 3
>
border treaties in this case
> & am thus still only presuming this
description is
> true
> just because it is almost universally the
case with
> nonnavigable border stream confluences
>
> but
then
> assuming the median lines are the correct borders as
>
i
> do
> the question then becomes
> exactly how should one
imagine or determine their
> conjunction
>
> & of
course just eyeballing them & visualizing where
> they meet is
enough for all practical purposes
> since even extending a retractable
tape measure
> across
> the neisse & then wading out to put
ones finger on
> the
> exactly measured midpoint of it waters isnt
likely
> to
> improve perceptibly on anyones best guess from
the
> bank
>
> but i think the czpl convergent coming in
along the
> dry creek bed is a bit more deceptive than either of
>
the other 2 convergents within the neisse centerline
> because this
creek comes in not perpendicularly to
> the
> neisse but at an
angle
>
> & it is very tempting
> when trying to
imagine czdepl
> to just follow & visually gauge also the angle
of
> the
> confluent centerline
> until it reaches or would
reach the center of the
> mainstream
>
> & this is
often if not usually more or less what
> happens too in the case of
navigable as opposed to
> nonnavigable border river confluences
>
> the navigation channel of the tributary tends to
> continue
angling downstream to a wye junction with
> the
> main navigation
channel
> in a geometric format i think many of us may be
>
imagining here in the case of czdepl too
>
> but here i think
> based on other similar situations
> it is really a tee rather
than a wye junction we are
> looking for in the center of the neisse
> at a point exactly perpendicular to the center of
> the
>
wet part of the mouth of the tributary creek
> & not following the
angle of the creek
> as its lilliputian navigation channel might
have
> done
>
> & granted both these centerlines must
change
> constantly albeit slightly
> depending on the variable
widths & positions of the
> water streams at any given
moment
> so this is a living mobile tripoint we are looking
>
for
> here rather than a stationary one
> even if it is living
& moving about in a rather
> limited area
> perhaps no larger
than the size of the person wading
> out to try to find & reach
her
> so not of much real consequence to anyone trying for
>
a
> class b visit as in basically being there
> because
>
tho they might never place their finger on the
> exactly
> true
tripoint of the moment
> & tho the midline trijunction point might
move away
> over time from where it presently is
> they will know
at least that some part of their body
> is undoubtedly on the
tripoint
> both in the moment & probably for a good long
time
> to
> come
> even if not until the end of the history
of czdepl
>
>
> so therefore
> as i gaze &
imagine more intently into your 19a
> tight
> shot of the creek
mouth
>
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_15658238/DE-PL-CZ/19a+Drei+PL+and+CZ+from+
>
DE.jpg?bcV3DlDBEm2Vcgtw
> or if the link fails please see borderpoint
file pic
> number 2
> i see czdepl come into focus not at bottom
center
> as i previously did when i cheered prematurely
> but
actually at if not perhaps just beyond the lower
> right corner of that
lovely frame
>
> or in terms of our maiden visit to this tripoint
&
> jespers premier tripoint pic
>
http://nicolette.dk/borderbase/tpphoto3/036055114.jpg
>
the tripoint position according to the above
> reckoning
> now
looks to be just beside the bulge on his right
> hip
> if it is
not actually hidden behind his back
>
> & i think your visit
here mike marks a considerable
> advancement in the state of play at
czdepl
> & so much so that i can only look forward all the
>
more
> eagerly to our first amphibious try here
> because there is
now every reason to make one &
> expect
> it will be
successful
>
> --- xachary04 <xachary04@...>
wrote:
>
> > I added photo 17a in BorderPoint Photos for
a
> closer
> > shot of the
> > imaginary tripoint in
the middle of the river.
> > Hopefully, this
> > photo
will help determine the actual tripoint.
> >
> > The dry
creek bed between CZ and PL seems to be
> the
> > actual
boundary.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I didn't reach the actual
tripoint
> as
> > I didn't want
>
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