I wish I had been there :) Do you remember exactly where on
the railway line that bridge lies?
The reason this picture interests me so much is that it has
raised a question in my mind about the exclave status of the parcel of land
connected to "the mainland" by the road under the bridge. Without access to the
legal documents and only being able to go on what I find on websites it is hard
to be certain but here is the thinking:
From the quote I found at http://www.rinbad.demon.co.uk/be_venn.htm "It took a further year of
negotiations to resolve differences and reach the definitive agreement of
6 November 1922 which provided for the incorporation into Belgium of "the
trackbed, with its buildings, of the railway from Raeren to Kalterherberg, which
in crossing the districts of Aachen and of Monschau forms five enclaves which
remain part of Germany" (at Roetgen, Lammersdorf, Konzen, Mützenich and
Ruitzhof). " it would appear that there could be an argument made that
the road which passes UNDER the bridge (not being part of "the trackbed, with its buildings,
of the railway from Raeren to Kalterherberg" - the key word being "trackbed") is not Belgian territory, although the
legal documents might address the point explicitly. Against this theory is the
continuation of the quote thus "which in crossing the districts of Aachen and of Monschau forms five
enclaves which remain part of Germany" although it is not clear whether
this last clause is in the official documents in reality. The other comment I
found against this theory is at http://geosite.jankrogh.com/vennbahn.htm "At boundary marker no. 750 it may look on this Belgian map like
the Mützenich enclave is connected to Germany proper over the railroad.
But the Germans, who show the road as Belgian would surely be the most
likely of the two parties to show it correctly if it was German. Therefore we
conclude that Mützenich is a German exclave" - but a) this refers to
"over the railroad" rather than "under" and b) I'm not sure I would believe
evidence from a commercial map without supporting legal documentation (and this
is rather similar to Jesper's rule number 1 as well isn't it?). BTW, in the map
that Eef Berns just sent to the list it looks as though the road by marker
750 (actually 751 isn't it?) passes under the bridge - so confusion reigns
further :)
In favour of the theory is the evidence from the photograph
that there are no apparent markings on or beside the road indicating a change in
jurisdiction or, from a purely practical perspective, a change in the style of
maintenance/road surface etc. as the road passes under the bridge, although I
suppose the German municipality might well have an agreement with Belgium to
maintain the road surface which would seem practical :).
The other thought that occurred to me is the intuitive
feeling that national territory must of necessity project from the centre of the
planet outwards through the surface uninterrupted. However precedents such as
the Yugoslav suite in Claridges during WW II would imply that principle does not
necessarily hold, similarly I suppose with embassies occupying certain floors of
a tower block although I suspect that is a different situation, notably
extraterritoriality, in international law.
So, IF the road under the bridge IS German territory, then
the land the other side is not a German exclave I
think.
Does anyone have hard evidence one way or the
other?
Thanks
Hugh
I do believe that is Doug and Jesper on the bridge in Belgium. And
the little red van of the GCEBE expedition (ah... memories... ) below in
Germany.
Almost 4 years ago!!
Doug
On Aug 24, 2005, at
4:59 AM, Hugh Wallis wrote:
Thanks
Jan
Does
anyone happen to know which road is passing under the railway in the picture
at
http://exclave.info/current/vennbahn/vennbahn-pene.jpg -
(linked to from http://exclave.info/current/vennbahn/vennbahnRR.html )
- I can't figure it out from the topo maps on these various sites as it is
not always clear even from these nice scanned maps when a road passes over,
under, or at grade.
Thanks
Hugh
From:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jan S. Krogh
Sent: Wednesday,
August 24, 2005 7:32 AM
To:
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[BoundaryPoint] Re: Where is this German exclave in
Belgium?
PLEASE NOTICE - GEOSITE IS NOW ON http://geosite.jankrogh.com
and
the Vennbahn article is now
on
http://geosite.jankrogh.com/vennbahn.htm
The
home.no site is not going to be updated
anymore.
Jan
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Doug Murray <doug@d...>
wrote:
> Our good friend Jan Krogh has lots of info on his
site:
>
>
http://home.no.net/enklaver/vennbahn.htm
>
> Welcome!
>
>
Doug
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2005,
at 12:26 PM, Hugh Wallis wrote:
>
> > At
http://www.borderlandtv.com/german_enclave_example.jpg Doug
Murray
> > shows a very nice map - I have
been trying to figure out where
this is
> >
by looking at Microsoft Autoroute (the only map I have of
the
region)
> > but can't match this up with
the B258 as shown there anywhare. I
> > imagine the is
one of the Roetgen-Monschau Belgian
railway
created
> > enclaves but I would
like to know exactly where?
> > Â
>
> Thanks for any help you can provide
> >
Â
> > Hugh
> >
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
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> >
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> > âª
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