Hugh, see the attached map, derived from a 1:50.000-map.
Vriendelijke groet, Eef Berns
-----------------------
websites:
- de grenspalen van Nederland: www.grenspalen.nl
- email-forum over grenspalen:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/grenspalen/
- Knnv-Ivn-Eindhoven:
http://www.knnv-ivn-eindhoven.nl
- Passie voor wijn: www.wijnpassie.nl
----- Original Message -----
From: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
To: <BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 11:54 PM
Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Digest Number 1884
There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. canaan ct
From: aletheia kallos <aletheiak@yahoo.com>
2. Madha, Nahwa, and Musandam peninsula
From: "Evgeny Vinokurov" <evgeny@vinokurov.info>
3. SV: Madha, Nahwa, and Musandam peninsula
From: "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@image.dk>
4. an extreme lapse of trypointing technique & other reflections
From: aletheia kallos <aletheiak@yahoo.com>
5. Hello Boundary Pointers!!
From: "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@our-own-home.com>
6. Where is this German exclave in Belgium?
From: "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@our-own-home.com>
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: aletheia kallos <aletheiak@yahoo.com>
Subject: canaan ct
for reasons too complicated & irrelevant to mention
my triumphal return from blue hill to cream hill has now been delayed til at
least saturday
so i must report that the already overdue illustrated accounts of my still
somewhat fresh
oldest working rock in america
&
great menh turnpoint
findings
will accordingly be delayed still further
but frankly there is now serious doubt anyway whether either of these topics
will ever prove to have contained any multipointing material whatsoever
indeed a close rereading of the bus&ss bible has satisfied me that its
mention of a coincident meeting of 2 named towns at the turnpoint refers to
towns in different states
& thus doesnt actually suggest the presence of a tripoint
as i had previously supposed it might
& i also have to remind myself that the sole source of the rumor that bound
rock marks a ghost tripoint is also the sole source of the rumor that bound
rock is the second oldest boundary marker in america
which i believe i may already have substantially busted into a younger heape
of stones
so the claim or supposition that bound rock is also a ghost tripoint marker
may be on very shaky ground indeed if the full testimony of this doubtful
witness must be discounted
hence very possibly zero multipoints in these entire discussions & in this
entire outing
& yet
i find both of these quests have big hearts
so i trust you will indulge my continuing pursuit of them here
at the same time you may be wondering with me
should we deliberately allow ourselves to compromise our stated focus
& i dont know if we should
especially now that what is left of our bp constitution is being taken a bit
more earnestly than ever before
but what do you think about that
in any case & in the meantime
the most intriguing & striking thing about these topics is that they both
seem to involve a rock in the middle of a water outlet
bound rock you may recall was originally in the middle of the mouth of the
hampton river
& the menh turnpoint also evidently has a corresponding rock associated with
it
in this case in the middle of the mouth of east pond aka great east lake
which is the geographical source of the piscataqua mainstream
aka salmon falls river
this rock is named bryant rock & dates from 1740 per bus&ss
& i believe i have also found this one
very near the modern menh turnpoint
pix to come
& it is a practically identical case of a water outlet displacing over time
except bryant rock is today actually off its original working point
as i may eventually be able to explain
but for starters let me say that i was very struck by the fact that my guess
at bryant rock
not only had all the right dimensions provided for it in bus&ss
but was actually situated directly on the menh line established by the
diagram shown on the top of the turnpoint witness marker
aka 1927 menh marker number 1
aha
& this suggests to me that tho the head of the salmon falls river must have
moved by accretion several rods westward from my presumptive bryant rock
between 1740 & 1927
the intervening 1927 marker was at least faithful to the original upper menh
alignment
which it hyperextended practically up to the present outlet of the lake
& i do wonder by what authority or principle the 1927 surveyors
commissioners closed this little stitch between the extant upper menh sector
& the fugitive lower menh sector
here btw is the topo
hopefully
http://topozone.com/map.asp?z=19&n=4825974&e=340691&s=24&size=l&datum=nad83&
layer=DRG25
note the small tongue of nh sticking out into the lake from maine
marker number 1 & my bryant rock guess are at opposite ends of this tongue
more or less
much else to mull on & report here
but running out of time for now
beeps
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[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:36:17 -0000
From: "Evgeny Vinokurov" <evgeny@vinokurov.info>
Subject: Madha, Nahwa, and Musandam peninsula
Hello,
does anybody know how exactly the enclaves of Madha and Nahwa as well
as the Musandam peninsula coastal enclave emerged around 1969-1971?
What were the reasons for this peculiar border-setting? I cannot
obtain any info on that. Thanks!
Evgeny
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:42:57 +0200
From: "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@image.dk>
Subject: SV: Madha, Nahwa, and Musandam peninsula
Some info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madha
Jesper
_____
Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På
vegne af Evgeny Vinokurov
Sendt: 23. august 2005 12:36
Til: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
Emne: [BoundaryPoint] Madha, Nahwa, and Musandam peninsula
Hello,
does anybody know how exactly the enclaves of Madha and Nahwa as well
as the Musandam peninsula coastal enclave emerged around 1969-1971?
What were the reasons for this peculiar border-setting? I cannot
obtain any info on that. Thanks!
Evgeny
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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: aletheia kallos <aletheiak@yahoo.com>
Subject: an extreme lapse of trypointing technique & other reflections
tho i realized full well
even while still present in the menh turnpoint vicinity on saturday
that there were sufficient indications in the bible for me to test whether
my guessed version of bryants 1740 rock was correct
using only the simple protractor & tape measure i had on board
nevertheless i was evidently so distracted at the time as to neglect them
all entirely
& why so you may ask
i guess it was because there was no actual tripointing involved
but now that i am several hundred miles away cooling my heels in the greater
ctmany area
i laugh to reread the following data from the report of the 1827 menh
commission on page 59 of bus&ss 1976 edition
we commenced at the bryant rock
known as such by tradition
which is a rock in the middle of salmon falls river at the outlet of
eastpond
about 6 feet by 3 by 3
& 2 feet under the surface of the water etc
said stone bears s71w 3 rods & 8 links from a large rock on the eastern bank
marked 1827
& bears also n19d30w 12 rods & 21 links from a rock near the mill dam marked
h
so i coulda shoulda & woulda followed these instructions to find these 2
extra marked rocks
& can now scarcely wait til my next return visit to do so
& how silly of me to have missed this clear opportunity for more fun the
first time
it also remains to check out the legal authorizations & field notes of the
1927 survey
to learn if there was any basis for the extra stitch & extra marker inserted
at that time between bryants rock & the present middle of the considerably
displaced salmon falls river
also it is noteworthy for a sawanabori enthusiast that the present head of
the river
or outlet of the lake
to the extent that it is distinguishable as the definite beginning of a
definite channel
is now situated a considerable distance above the turnpoint
but it is also perhaps worth remembering that a true sawanabori of the
piscataqua would not have been content to stop at either of these historic
source points for use as turnpoints
but would have pressed onward & upward to the headspring of the most major
feeder stream of great east lake
finally
in addition to the stylistic similarity as previously noted
another nice connection between bryants rock & bound rock is that when the
first menh commission met in 1737 to fix the boundary that was ultimately to
turn at bryants rock
it did so at hampton nh
where bound rock is located
in fact the 2 rocks are situated only 83 years & half as many miles apart
so they practically have a cultural affinity
& no other former or present midstream working rocks in the whole world come
to mind
oh yes
a reportedly or supposedly underwater one in the rhein
but no other known confirmation
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:55:34 -0400
From: "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@our-own-home.com>
Subject: Hello Boundary Pointers!!
Having just discovered this list and joined up I thought I should introduce
myself.
I have been fascinated by boundaries and borders, especially oddities like
tripoints, since as long as I can remember. So this seems like the perfect
place to hang out :)
My discovery of this list was the result of researching on the internet for
my upcoming 2 day meeting in Madrid and my interest in geocaching
(www.geocaching.com). I decided to go caching in the Pyrennean region around
Andorra over the weekend leading up to my meetings (I will fly into
Barcelona arriving on the morning of Saturday 10th September and end up in
Madrid on the Sunday evening) and noticed Llívia on the map. It seemed an
oddity and so the research started in earnest!! While I doubt whether I
shall be able to access the Andorra-Spain-France tripoints in the time
available, since they appear to require extensive hiking to reach and I
shall be on my own which seems unwise in such territory, I shall definitely
make the effort to investigate the Spanish exclave of Llívia. I hope to
bring back some photos and stories to share with the like minded people on
this list.
My enthusiasm being raised for this form of adventure I realised the added
possibility of taking advantage of a technical "stopover" in Frankfurt (less
than 24 hours means that I can still get a cheap "through fare" ) on my way
back to Canada. By driving from FRA to a comfortable (I hope) hotel in
Thionville in France on the Tuesday evening (13th September) and then
getting an early start on the Wednesday morning it seems that I should be
able to visit:
1) the 3 Luxembourg Tripoints,
2) some of the German exclaves near Monschau (stopping to collect a geocache
at http://tinyurl.com/9kryh in Belgium and possibly http://tinyurl.com/8vncx
which is the only cache inside one of these enclaves as far as I can tell) -
although depending on my assesment of how the time is going I might skip
these in favour of some faster roads,
3) the old Neutral Moresnet territory where I can practice my Esperanto
(yeah right!!),
4) the southernmost point in the Netherlands (with another geocache at
http://tinyurl.com/dwt8o ) and
5) the Netherlands/Belgium/Germany/Neutral Moresnet Quadpoint, before
6) hurtling down the Autobahn to catch my 1700 flight from FRA.
Am I nuts? Yes!
I hope I am in good company therefore!!
If anyone could provide me GPS coordinates for the Belgium/France/Luxembourg
tripoint as well as advice on the best access point/place to park I would be
grateful as my internet research indicates that this could be the most
difficult one to find.
Also advice on the fastest route back to FRA bearing in mind any known local
conditions such as road works etc. would be gratefully received. I was
planning on the Aachen Pariser Ring to the A4, staying on the A4 round Köln
and then the A3. Does this make sense?
Cheers
Hugh
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:26:02 -0400
From: "Hugh Wallis" <hugh@our-own-home.com>
Subject: Where is this German exclave in Belgium?
At http://www.borderlandtv.com/german_enclave_example.jpg Doug Murray shows
a very nice map - I have been trying to figure out where this is by looking
at Microsoft Autoroute (the only map I have of the region) but can't match
this up with the B258 as shown there anywhare. I imagine the is one of the
Roetgen-Monschau Belgian railway created enclaves but I would like to know
exactly where?
Thanks for any help you can provide
Hugh
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