thanx jesper
very interesting
& as far as semi de jure is concerned
&or hemi or demi or quasi or pene or pseudo or crypto etc etc de jure
for that matter
i would only add that i believe you are correct in seeing & indicating here that the progression from de facto to de jure is indeed a process of stages & steps & degrees of actualization
so any de facto line upon which there is any explicit agreement at all has thereby already become in your terms to some extent semi de jure
analogously
anything less active than an actively contested military front is already to some extent a frontier
& no longer simply a front
etc
& such shades of distinction as this
& the ultimate crystallization of military fronts into borders
& of war spoils into sovereign territory
are also precisely what seem to be behind the brouhaha that just occurred here over where the highest point of some political entity can or cannot be
i mean
when it wasnt purely an exercise in shifty semantics
which i realize it also partly was
for the territorial aspect of political entities
including their homelands or metropoles & their colonies or outlying territories etc etc
is just stacks & stacks of such shades of distinction too
& i thought it was interesting & highly sympathetic that in the end
amidst all this nebulosity
wolfgang at least seemed to be gasping for some fresh clear sharp multipointing air for a change
here
no human visitors came to mig torch at all on day 6 of the party
but the mangrove was so full of fish for the grand finale
that many birds of all imaginable shapes & hues were dive bombing all around in a daylong airshow extravaganza
& just before sunset
the rara avis de resistance
made a single flyby appearance
the biggest bald eagle i ever saw
which flew right into & up my driveway to nowhere
& so close over head that i could have flipped it a florabama mullet
man it felt like the freakin 4th of july
so with that final prodigy of a portent
the 86ing part of the megapointing tour has been completely 86ed now
& i can finally proclaim
cribbing from that other great barbarian american
that
from where the sun now stands
i will 86 no more
forever
Jesper Nielsen <jesniel@...> wrote:
All of the island of Cyprus, except the SBAs, are formally The Republic of Cyprus as includes greek and turkish cypriots.
After years of civil war Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974, and on August 16, UNFICYP was able to define ceasefire lines with both Turk and Greeks. The cease fire and the ceasefire lines were agreed on by UN, Turks and Greek (and probably the British too). I haven't seen the agreement, but the boundaries are well defined, some minor areas however remain in dispute. (Did I tell you yellow car border dispute in Central Nicosia?) It appears that the Turks managed to advance their positions at some places before UNFICYP finished defining the lines. The areas, like Limnitis on the north coast and Achna just north of the ESBA transit road appears to be accepted as Turkish occupied.
Nobody, except Turkey or the Turkish Cypriots offcially recognize the selfproclamed Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), but the boundary between the UN Bufferzone and the two Cypruses are recognized by the international community, and thus I would declare them semi de jure. EU recognizes the boundaries as only the Greek administration is a full member of EU, while in occupied north EU laws has been suspended. The EU position in the Bufferzone remain unclear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_their_relations_with_the_EU).
According to the 16 Aug 1974 cease fire line agreement Strovilia was not under Turkish occupation. And according to the agreement nobody was allowed to advance their positions. In several places in Nicosia the Turks and Greeks advanced, but after protesting on higher UN level, the troops went back to status quo. So the CY boundaries have remained unchanged since 1974. They are in my oppinion semi de jure. It was illegal and against the agreement that the Turks advanced into Strovilia in 2000, building a new border gate (the old one still remains), placing customs houses, making bus stops etc. UN protested (as several news stories tell), but the Turks have not retired. As of today Strovilia is semi de jure Greek, but de facto Turkish.
Jesper
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 5:51 PM
Subject: 86ing update & Re: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Strovilia, and two more defacto tripoints (visited)
& if the strovilia clave was not occupied by any forces between 1974 & 2000
but was simply an air bubble or vacuum sustained by an armistice status quo
until it finally imploded for some reason in 2000
as you appear to be indicating
then these ghost tripoints were actually just the unilateral creations of the turks
in their misunderstanding of the limits of the sba
& so they stand or rather stood at the actual ends of the actual turkish front line
which of course might have varied quite a bit over the 26 years of deployments
by at least several meters probably
or even tens or hundreds of meters perhaps
& de facto actually refers to this day to day & moment to moment reality
& it just means what is actually in effect on the ground at any given point in time
here at big pine & mig torch keys the finishing touches are being applied to the 86ing ceremonies
which i am expecting to conclude on schedule tonite
i have decided however not to 86 all 86ing at this time
but only my own 86ing
just in case someone else would also like to bust a fatuous idea on its 86th birthday in future
so i am pleased to announce that that resource will remain available even after the party is over
& i may also reserve the right to continue giving allowance indefinitely as well
aletheiak <aletheiak@...> wrote:
well yes we know all this
but you were asking about the actual tripoints
between 1974 & 2000
werent you
& whether they exist or count
or what they even were
etc
rather than just asking about the nearest convenient thing to them
so that is why i am continuing the pursuit of the actual tripoints
from where you have left off here
clearly the markers did not mark the actual tripoints but were just a
convenience in knowing the approximate locations of them
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
wrote:
> UNFICYP made the cease fire line agreement, which both greeks and
turks agreed on.
>
> So UNFICYP must have closed of the line, and cleverly used the
already physical markers.
>
> The road from marker 237 plus the land south east of Agios
Nikolaos
down to the buffer zone is in any case occupied by the Turks.
>
> Jesper
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: aletheiak
> To: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 7:30 PM
> Subject: [BoundaryPoint] Re: Strovilia, and two more defacto
tripoints (visited)
>
>
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen"
<jesniel@i...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > also jesper
> > usually
> > for dejure there is diplomatic recognition & explicit
tripartite
> agreement with ratifications etc
> >
> > but you
know dejure is just a more refined development of
defacto
> anyway
> >
> > everything is defacto but only the most completed & refined
> confections deserve the name of dejure
> >
> >
> > also i am curious
> >
> > how did you decide on these exact markers as the exact
tripoints
> >
> > I have seen a map made by UNFICYP
> >
> > Jesper
>
> well ok but you say in
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/5953
> that the turks only reached the north side of the road
>
yet you show marker 237 on the south side of the road
> & you also indicate a turnpoint opposite it in red line
>
> so dont you rather mean that this imaginary turnpoint is actually
the
> best available approximation of the eastern tripoint
> rather than marker 237 per se
> & that in any event both markers 233 & 237 are merely best
available
> approximations of what are actually rather more indefinite
tripoints
>
>
>
>
>
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