--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
<lnadybal@c...> wrote:
>
> There is no "black and white"
aha
good point
& even the amaz claves must have been permeable in some ways
because even active military fronts are porous
good point
& clave borders are no more black & white than any other borders
so this was an impossible quest precisely because nature busts a
vacuum & a monopoly in every way she can
& there is no rule nor any exception to prove or disprove it
but just a tendency toward dissolution or entropy
- even Büsingen, a pure enclave/exclave
> if ever there was one was occupied during the aftermath of WWII,
today
> it is under Swiss customs jurisdiction (after having vacillated
> between the two), Swiss state postbusses route through it, the
Swiss
> nationalized health insurance is used to pass claims from
residents to
> the German system, Swiss telephones are installed there alongside
> German. The same applies to Campione d''Italia. Even Campione's
> stamps were not issued until the Switzerland gave its approval.
> Sovereignty is seemingly divisible in all these cases. Exclaves
are
> exclaves only for certain purposes.
>
> "it may be worth reminding ourselves that rebirth of enclaves isnt
> the same thing as rebirth of exclaves". I think what you meant to
> write is "it isn't NECESSARILY the same thing...". In the case of
> Kowloon, it was an exclave and an enclave simultaneously. An
exclave
> isn't necessarily and enclave (a la Dubrovnik), and an enclave
isn't
> always an exclave (a la San Marino).
>
> LN
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > >
> > > After a lapse of a few days, here, for your revived
consideration,
> > is
> > > a presentation of another enclave that went away and came
back.
> > you
> > > didn't like the pope's possession as an example, so how about
this
> > one?
> > >
> > > The Walled City of Kowloon inside British leased Hong Kong
New
> > > Territories.
> > >
> > > Here's a short history:
> > >
> > > June 9, 1898 Convention Respecting an Extension of the Hong
Kong
> > > Territory signed in Peking, provided that:
> > >
> > > - with respect to the walled city (Kowloon) "...Chinese
> > officials
> > > now stationed there shall continue to exercise jurisdiction
except
> > as
> > > may be inconsistent with the military requirements for the
defense
> > of
> > > Hong Kong. Within the remainder of the newly-leased territory
> > Great
> > > Britain shall have sole jurisdiction. Chinese officials and
people
> > > shall be allowed as heretofore to use the road from Kowloon to
> > Hsinan."
> > >
> > > - "It is further agreed that the existing landing-place
near
> > > Kowloon City shall be reserved for the convenience of Chinese
> > > men-of-war, merchant and passenger vessels which may lie there
and
> > > come and go at their pleasure; and for the convenience of
movement
> > of
> > > the officials and people within the city."
> > >
> > > August 6, 1898, Ratifications exchanged in London.
> > >
> > > October 20, 1898 New Territories Order in Council (Court at
> > Balmoral)
> > > ordered (in its paragraph 4):
> > >
> > > - Notwithstanding anything contained herein, the Chinese
> > > officials now stationed within the City of Kowloon shall
continue
> > to
> > > exercize jurisdiction therein except in so far as may be
> > inconsistent
> > > with the military requirements for the defense of Hong Kong.."
> > >
> > > December 27, 1899 Walled City Order in Council (Court at
Windsor)
> > ordered:
> > >
> > > - "...Article 4 of the Order of Her Majesty in Council of
the
> > > 20th day of October, 1898, is hereby revoked... The City of
> > Kowloon
> > > shall be, and the same is hereby declared, for the term of the
> > > lease... part and parcel of Her Majesty's Colony of Hong
Kong..."
> > >
> > > "After the war the Chinese government planned to restore her
> > > administration and the provincial authorities announced
intention
> > to
> > > establish Chinese civil courts there" [Hong Kong Telegraph
Dec. 6,
> > > 1947].
> > >
> > > During its occupation of Hong Kong (24 Dec 1941 - Aug 1945),
Japan
> > > evicted people from the city; during the Japanese occupation
the
> > area
> > > was sparsely populated. In 1943 the walls were demolished to
> > provide
> > > material for Kai Tak Airport improvements. After Japan's
surrender,
> > > squatters (whether former residents or - more likely -
newcomers)
> > > began to occupy the Walled City, resisting several attempts by
> > Britain
> > > in 1948 to drive them out. "The exact boundaries of the Walled
City
> > > cannot now be determined". (Wesley-Smith, Unequal Treaty).
With no
> > > wall to protect it (initially), the Walled City became a haven
for
> > > crooks and drug addicts, as the Hong Kong Police had no right
to
> > enter
> > > the City (and mainland China refused to take care of it).
> > >
> > > The 1949 foundation of the Peoples' Republic of China added
> > thousands
> > > of refugees to the population, many from Guangzhou, and by
this
> > time,
> > > Britain had had enough, and simply adopted a 'hands-off'
policy. A
> > > murder that occurred in Kowloon in 1959 set off a small
diplomatic
> > > crisis, as the two nations each tried to get the other to claim
> > > responsibility for a vast tract of land now virtually ruled by
> > > anti-Manchurian Triads. (The Triad is a collective term that
> > > describes many branches of the underground society based in
Hong
> > > Kong). The Triads' rule lasted up until the mid-1970s, when
a
> > series
> > > of over 3,000 police raids occurred in Kowloon. With the
Triads'
> > power
> > > diminished, a strange sort of synergy blossomed, and the
Walled
> > City
> > > began to grow almost organically, the square buildings folding
up
> > into
> > > one another as thousands of modifications were made, virtually
> > none by
> > > architects, until hundreds of square metres were simply a kind
of
> > > patchwork monolith. Labyrinthine corridors ran through the
> > monolith,
> > > some of those being former streets (at the ground level, and
often
> > > clogged up with trash), and some of those running through upper
> > > floors, practically between buildings. The only rules of
> > construction
> > > were twofold: electricity had to be provided to avoid fire,
and the
> > > buildings could be no more than about fourteen stories high
> > (because
> > > of the nearby airport). A mere eight municipal pipes somehow
> > provided
> > > water to the entire structure (although more could have come
from
> > > wells). By the early 1980s, Kowloon had an estimated
population of
> > > 35,000 - with a crime rate far below the Hong Kong average,
despite
> > > the notable lack of any real law enforcement.
> > >
> > > Over time, both the British and Chinese governments found this
> > > massive, anarchic city to be a bit much - despite the low
crime, if
> > > the 'Black Market' ever had a physical location, this would
have
> > been
> > > it, and needless to say, the sanitary conditions were, well, a
bit
> > > wanting. [Some Post WWII History above from the "Free
> > Dictionary.com".]
> > >
> > > April 24, 1975, Hong Kong officials quoted as saying "Walled
City
> > is
> > > not under the jurisdiction of the [Hong Kong] government"
(South
> > China
> > > Morning Post).
> > >
> > > After the Joint Declaration in 1984 The Sino-British Joint
> > Declaration
> > > on the Question of Hong Kong (The Joint Declaration), was
signed by
> > > the Prime Ministers of the People's Republic of China (PRC)
and the
> > > United Kingdom (UK) governments on December 19, 1984 in
Beijing.
> > The
> > > Declaration entered into force with the exchange of
instruments of
> > > ratification on May 27, 1985 and was registered by the PRC and
UK
> > > governments at the United Nations on June 12, 1985. After the
joint
> > > declaration in 1984, China allowed British authorities to
demolish
> > the
> > > City and resettle its inhabitants. The mutual decision to tear
down
> > > the walled city was made in 1987.
> > >
> > > Summary:
> > > From the De Jure standpoint:
> > >
> > > a. From the HKK-British paradigm, the enclave existed for
> > about
> > > 14 months (a little longer from the British home government
that
> > was
> > > not dependent upon the New Territories Orders), 1898-99.
> > >
> > > b. From the Chinese standpoint, it started to exist as
non-
> > leased
> > > enclave within leased New Territories at start of lease 1898;
it
> > > ceased to exist as sovereignly differentiatable from
surrounding
> > > occupied territory only during Japanese occupation 1941-5 and
it
> > > returned to exist as non-leased territory surrounded by leased
> > > trerritory in 1945 when GB power returned so that exercise of
lease
> > > terms could be resumed.
> > >
> > > From the de facto standpoint, Kowloon existed as enclave
within the
> > > leased area under British sovereignty from beginning of the New
> > > Territories lease until revocation in 1899, was in limbo
because
> > the
> > > weak Chinese government of the time could not exercise
objections
> > to
> > > British actions until the Japanese took it in 1941 when it
ceased
> > to
> > > be either under British or Chinese control. It formed again
when
> > the
> > > Japanese left and lease terms resumed, but was under nominal
> > Chinese
> > > "control" until lease ended with British exercising minor
> > > administrative power when defense (civil and military) of the
> > leased
> > > territory required (under the original provision of the lease
from
> > 1898).
> > >
> > > One can say that sovereignty was shared in certain aspects at
> > certain
> > > times,
> >
> > ok all very nice stuff len
> > but it seems to me that the fact that one can say what you say
here
> > plus the fact that there were always clear indications of who
was
> > primarily in charge
> > as expressed in wordings like
> > insofar as is not inconsistent with the defense of such & such
> > etc
> > etc
> > means
> > again
> > close but no obvious cigar yet
> >
> >
> > also
> > it may be worth reminding ourselves that rebirth of enclaves
isnt
> > the same thing as rebirth of exclaves
> >
> > political changes could renew or revive a nonexclave enclave
border
> > approximately or even precisely i suppose
> > whether anything was actually revived or not
> > since there is no enduring entity that this supposed renewal
keeps
> > belonging to
> > but it comprises only itself each time it comes up
> > & is thus a new & distinct entity at the time of each incarnation
> >
> >
> > so i at least dont see anything in kowloon yet that is even
remotely
> > like the former amaz exclave enclaves
> > which we were considering
> > & which were a case of first black & then white but never gray
> > & which occasioned this quest or question
> >
> > nor is anybody denying or disliking anything
> > but just looking for real evidence of a quite definite &
specific
> > thing
> >
> > proof of an exception that proves a rule
> > by actually going from black to white
> > & then back to black again
> >
> > unless this really is the nonesuch & impossibility i imagine
> >
> >
> > but as an international enclave that existed and that came and
> > > went and returned (from at lease someone's official sovereign
> > > standpoint) can't be denied.
> > >
> > > LN