& i think what you have proved in effect len
by simply observing that there is neither clave black nor clave white
but only a wide array of clave grays
is that any & all supposedly or apparently dead claves cant really be
dead & so cant really be reborn
rather
if they seem so
it is just that they have become somewhat more or less gray than they
used to be
& moreover
in view of all this grayness rather than any blackness or whiteness
unless & until an apparently dead or even confirmed ghost clave is
ever noticeably revived
then it must be presumed not to be dead but to continue to exist
yikes
somewhat like a dormant volcano or a living ghost perhaps
so any rebirth of any clave
whether enclave or exclave or both
is purely imaginary
yikes
or at least that appears to be the logical extension of your
observation
& so
this line continues
my saying exclave rebirths arent the same as enclave rebirths does
indeed need to be corrected
albeit not as you suppose here below
but by simply saying
supposedly born again claves of any sort arent really born again but
may only seem so since they never really died in the first place
admittedly this creates more problems than it solves
since for example nobody expects steinstuecken to return to life
yet karki & company which have been effectively dead just as long
are considered by some people to be somehow in suspended animation
of course we can blame this one entirely on the cia & its followers
& anyone who trusts cia intelligence deserves what they get
but not all dead claves can be so easily revived just like that
oops
did i say dead again
but there is no such thing as dead
nor death nor dying nor any of that
for all that is an illusion
there is only everlasting life
i must keep correcting myself
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...>
wrote:
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> >
> > There is no "black and white"
>
> aha
> good point
>
> & even the amaz claves must have been permeable in some ways
> because even active military fronts are porous
>
> good point
>
> & clave borders are no more black & white than any other borders
>
> so this was an impossible quest precisely because nature busts a
> vacuum & a monopoly in every way she can
>
> & there is no rule nor any exception to prove or disprove it
>
> but just a tendency toward dissolution or entropy
>
> - even Büsingen, a pure enclave/exclave
> > if ever there was one was occupied during the aftermath of WWII,
> today
> > it is under Swiss customs jurisdiction (after having vacillated
> > between the two), Swiss state postbusses route through it, the
> Swiss
> > nationalized health insurance is used to pass claims from
> residents to
> > the German system, Swiss telephones are installed there alongside
> > German. The same applies to Campione d''Italia. Even Campione's
> > stamps were not issued until the Switzerland gave its approval.
> > Sovereignty is seemingly divisible in all these cases. Exclaves
> are
> > exclaves only for certain purposes.
> >
> > "it may be worth reminding ourselves that rebirth of enclaves
isnt
> > the same thing as rebirth of exclaves". I think what you meant
to
> > write is "it isn't NECESSARILY the same thing...". In the case of
> > Kowloon, it was an exclave and an enclave simultaneously. An
> exclave
> > isn't necessarily and enclave (a la Dubrovnik), and an enclave
> isn't
> > always an exclave (a la San Marino).
> >
> > LN
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
<aletheiak@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > After a lapse of a few days, here, for your revived
> consideration,
> > > is
> > > > a presentation of another enclave that went away and came
> back.
> > > you
> > > > didn't like the pope's possession as an example, so how about
> this
> > > one?
> > > >
> > > > The Walled City of Kowloon inside British leased Hong
Kong
> New
> > > > Territories.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a short history:
> > > >
> > > > June 9, 1898 Convention Respecting an Extension of the Hong
> Kong
> > > > Territory signed in Peking, provided that:
> > > >
> > > > - with respect to the walled city (Kowloon) "...Chinese
> > > officials
> > > > now stationed there shall continue to exercise jurisdiction
> except
> > > as
> > > > may be inconsistent with the military requirements for the
> defense
> > > of
> > > > Hong Kong. Within the remainder of the newly-leased
territory
> > > Great
> > > > Britain shall have sole jurisdiction. Chinese officials and
> people
> > > > shall be allowed as heretofore to use the road from Kowloon
to
> > > Hsinan."
> > > >
> > > > - "It is further agreed that the existing landing-place
> near
> > > > Kowloon City shall be reserved for the convenience of Chinese
> > > > men-of-war, merchant and passenger vessels which may lie
there
> and
> > > > come and go at their pleasure; and for the convenience of
> movement
> > > of
> > > > the officials and people within the city."
> > > >
> > > > August 6, 1898, Ratifications exchanged in London.
> > > >
> > > > October 20, 1898 New Territories Order in Council (Court at
> > > Balmoral)
> > > > ordered (in its paragraph 4):
> > > >
> > > > - Notwithstanding anything contained herein, the Chinese
> > > > officials now stationed within the City of Kowloon shall
> continue
> > > to
> > > > exercize jurisdiction therein except in so far as may be
> > > inconsistent
> > > > with the military requirements for the defense of Hong Kong.."
> > > >
> > > > December 27, 1899 Walled City Order in Council (Court at
> Windsor)
> > > ordered:
> > > >
> > > > - "...Article 4 of the Order of Her Majesty in Council
of
> the
> > > > 20th day of October, 1898, is hereby revoked... The City of
> > > Kowloon
> > > > shall be, and the same is hereby declared, for the term of the
> > > > lease... part and parcel of Her Majesty's Colony of Hong
> Kong..."
> > > >
> > > > "After the war the Chinese government planned to restore her
> > > > administration and the provincial authorities announced
> intention
> > > to
> > > > establish Chinese civil courts there" [Hong Kong Telegraph
> Dec. 6,
> > > > 1947].
> > > >
> > > > During its occupation of Hong Kong (24 Dec 1941 - Aug 1945),
> Japan
> > > > evicted people from the city; during the Japanese occupation
> the
> > > area
> > > > was sparsely populated. In 1943 the walls were demolished to
> > > provide
> > > > material for Kai Tak Airport improvements. After Japan's
> surrender,
> > > > squatters (whether former residents or - more likely -
> newcomers)
> > > > began to occupy the Walled City, resisting several attempts
by
> > > Britain
> > > > in 1948 to drive them out. "The exact boundaries of the
Walled
> City
> > > > cannot now be determined". (Wesley-Smith, Unequal Treaty).
> With no
> > > > wall to protect it (initially), the Walled City became a
haven
> for
> > > > crooks and drug addicts, as the Hong Kong Police had no right
> to
> > > enter
> > > > the City (and mainland China refused to take care of it).
> > > >
> > > > The 1949 foundation of the Peoples' Republic of China added
> > > thousands
> > > > of refugees to the population, many from Guangzhou, and by
> this
> > > time,
> > > > Britain had had enough, and simply adopted a 'hands-off'
> policy. A
> > > > murder that occurred in Kowloon in 1959 set off a small
> diplomatic
> > > > crisis, as the two nations each tried to get the other to
claim
> > > > responsibility for a vast tract of land now virtually ruled by
> > > > anti-Manchurian Triads. (The Triad is a collective term that
> > > > describes many branches of the underground society based in
> Hong
> > > > Kong). The Triads' rule lasted up until the mid-1970s, when
> a
> > > series
> > > > of over 3,000 police raids occurred in Kowloon. With the
> Triads'
> > > power
> > > > diminished, a strange sort of synergy blossomed, and the
> Walled
> > > City
> > > > began to grow almost organically, the square buildings
folding
> up
> > > into
> > > > one another as thousands of modifications were made,
virtually
> > > none by
> > > > architects, until hundreds of square metres were simply a
kind
> of
> > > > patchwork monolith. Labyrinthine corridors ran through the
> > > monolith,
> > > > some of those being former streets (at the ground level, and
> often
> > > > clogged up with trash), and some of those running through
upper
> > > > floors, practically between buildings. The only rules of
> > > construction
> > > > were twofold: electricity had to be provided to avoid fire,
> and the
> > > > buildings could be no more than about fourteen stories high
> > > (because
> > > > of the nearby airport). A mere eight municipal pipes somehow
> > > provided
> > > > water to the entire structure (although more could have come
> from
> > > > wells). By the early 1980s, Kowloon had an estimated
> population of
> > > > 35,000 - with a crime rate far below the Hong Kong average,
> despite
> > > > the notable lack of any real law enforcement.
> > > >
> > > > Over time, both the British and Chinese governments found this
> > > > massive, anarchic city to be a bit much - despite the low
> crime, if
> > > > the 'Black Market' ever had a physical location, this would
> have
> > > been
> > > > it, and needless to say, the sanitary conditions were, well,
a
> bit
> > > > wanting. [Some Post WWII History above from the "Free
> > > Dictionary.com".]
> > > >
> > > > April 24, 1975, Hong Kong officials quoted as saying "Walled
> City
> > > is
> > > > not under the jurisdiction of the [Hong Kong] government"
> (South
> > > China
> > > > Morning Post).
> > > >
> > > > After the Joint Declaration in 1984 The Sino-British Joint
> > > Declaration
> > > > on the Question of Hong Kong (The Joint Declaration), was
> signed by
> > > > the Prime Ministers of the People's Republic of China (PRC)
> and the
> > > > United Kingdom (UK) governments on December 19, 1984 in
> Beijing.
> > > The
> > > > Declaration entered into force with the exchange of
> instruments of
> > > > ratification on May 27, 1985 and was registered by the PRC
and
> UK
> > > > governments at the United Nations on June 12, 1985. After the
> joint
> > > > declaration in 1984, China allowed British authorities to
> demolish
> > > the
> > > > City and resettle its inhabitants. The mutual decision to
tear
> down
> > > > the walled city was made in 1987.
> > > >
> > > > Summary:
> > > > From the De Jure standpoint:
> > > >
> > > > a. From the HKK-British paradigm, the enclave existed
for
> > > about
> > > > 14 months (a little longer from the British home government
> that
> > > was
> > > > not dependent upon the New Territories Orders), 1898-99.
> > > >
> > > > b. From the Chinese standpoint, it started to exist as
> non-
> > > leased
> > > > enclave within leased New Territories at start of lease 1898;
> it
> > > > ceased to exist as sovereignly differentiatable from
> surrounding
> > > > occupied territory only during Japanese occupation 1941-5 and
> it
> > > > returned to exist as non-leased territory surrounded by leased
> > > > trerritory in 1945 when GB power returned so that exercise of
> lease
> > > > terms could be resumed.
> > > >
> > > > From the de facto standpoint, Kowloon existed as enclave
> within the
> > > > leased area under British sovereignty from beginning of the
New
> > > > Territories lease until revocation in 1899, was in limbo
> because
> > > the
> > > > weak Chinese government of the time could not exercise
> objections
> > > to
> > > > British actions until the Japanese took it in 1941 when it
> ceased
> > > to
> > > > be either under British or Chinese control. It formed again
> when
> > > the
> > > > Japanese left and lease terms resumed, but was under nominal
> > > Chinese
> > > > "control" until lease ended with British exercising minor
> > > > administrative power when defense (civil and military) of the
> > > leased
> > > > territory required (under the original provision of the lease
> from
> > > 1898).
> > > >
> > > > One can say that sovereignty was shared in certain aspects at
> > > certain
> > > > times,
> > >
> > > ok all very nice stuff len
> > > but it seems to me that the fact that one can say what you say
> here
> > > plus the fact that there were always clear indications of who
> was
> > > primarily in charge
> > > as expressed in wordings like
> > > insofar as is not inconsistent with the defense of such & such
> > > etc
> > > etc
> > > means
> > > again
> > > close but no obvious cigar yet
> > >
> > >
> > > also
> > > it may be worth reminding ourselves that rebirth of enclaves
> isnt
> > > the same thing as rebirth of exclaves
> > >
> > > political changes could renew or revive a nonexclave enclave
> border
> > > approximately or even precisely i suppose
> > > whether anything was actually revived or not
> > > since there is no enduring entity that this supposed renewal
> keeps
> > > belonging to
> > > but it comprises only itself each time it comes up
> > > & is thus a new & distinct entity at the time of each
incarnation
> > >
> > >
> > > so i at least dont see anything in kowloon yet that is even
> remotely
> > > like the former amaz exclave enclaves
> > > which we were considering
> > > & which were a case of first black & then white but never gray
> > > & which occasioned this quest or question
> > >
> > > nor is anybody denying or disliking anything
> > > but just looking for real evidence of a quite definite &
> specific
> > > thing
> > >
> > > proof of an exception that proves a rule
> > > by actually going from black to white
> > > & then back to black again
> > >
> > > unless this really is the nonesuch & impossibility i imagine
> > >
> > >
> > > but as an international enclave that existed and that came and
> > > > went and returned (from at lease someone's official sovereign
> > > > standpoint) can't be denied.
> > > >
> > > > LN