There is no "black and white" - even Büsingen, a pure enclave/exclave
if ever there was one was occupied during the aftermath of WWII, today
it is under Swiss customs jurisdiction (after having vacillated
between the two), Swiss state postbusses route through it, the Swiss
nationalized health insurance is used to pass claims from residents to
the German system, Swiss telephones are installed there alongside
German. The same applies to Campione d''Italia. Even Campione's
stamps were not issued until the Switzerland gave its approval.
Sovereignty is seemingly divisible in all these cases. Exclaves are
exclaves only for certain purposes.
"it may be worth reminding ourselves that rebirth of enclaves isnt
the same thing as rebirth of exclaves". I think what you meant to
write is "it isn't NECESSARILY the same thing...". In the case of
Kowloon, it was an exclave and an enclave simultaneously. An exclave
isn't necessarily and enclave (a la Dubrovnik), and an enclave isn't
always an exclave (a la San Marino).
LN
--- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak" <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A. Nadybal"
> <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> >
> > After a lapse of a few days, here, for your revived consideration,
> is
> > a presentation of another enclave that went away and came back.
> you
> > didn't like the pope's possession as an example, so how about this
> one?
> >
> > The Walled City of Kowloon inside British leased Hong Kong New
> > Territories.
> >
> > Here's a short history:
> >
> > June 9, 1898 Convention Respecting an Extension of the Hong Kong
> > Territory signed in Peking, provided that:
> >
> > - with respect to the walled city (Kowloon) "...Chinese
> officials
> > now stationed there shall continue to exercise jurisdiction except
> as
> > may be inconsistent with the military requirements for the defense
> of
> > Hong Kong. Within the remainder of the newly-leased territory
> Great
> > Britain shall have sole jurisdiction. Chinese officials and people
> > shall be allowed as heretofore to use the road from Kowloon to
> Hsinan."
> >
> > - "It is further agreed that the existing landing-place near
> > Kowloon City shall be reserved for the convenience of Chinese
> > men-of-war, merchant and passenger vessels which may lie there and
> > come and go at their pleasure; and for the convenience of movement
> of
> > the officials and people within the city."
> >
> > August 6, 1898, Ratifications exchanged in London.
> >
> > October 20, 1898 New Territories Order in Council (Court at
> Balmoral)
> > ordered (in its paragraph 4):
> >
> > - Notwithstanding anything contained herein, the Chinese
> > officials now stationed within the City of Kowloon shall continue
> to
> > exercize jurisdiction therein except in so far as may be
> inconsistent
> > with the military requirements for the defense of Hong Kong.."
> >
> > December 27, 1899 Walled City Order in Council (Court at Windsor)
> ordered:
> >
> > - "...Article 4 of the Order of Her Majesty in Council of the
> > 20th day of October, 1898, is hereby revoked... The City of
> Kowloon
> > shall be, and the same is hereby declared, for the term of the
> > lease... part and parcel of Her Majesty's Colony of Hong Kong..."
> >
> > "After the war the Chinese government planned to restore her
> > administration and the provincial authorities announced intention
> to
> > establish Chinese civil courts there" [Hong Kong Telegraph Dec. 6,
> > 1947].
> >
> > During its occupation of Hong Kong (24 Dec 1941 - Aug 1945), Japan
> > evicted people from the city; during the Japanese occupation the
> area
> > was sparsely populated. In 1943 the walls were demolished to
> provide
> > material for Kai Tak Airport improvements. After Japan's surrender,
> > squatters (whether former residents or - more likely - newcomers)
> > began to occupy the Walled City, resisting several attempts by
> Britain
> > in 1948 to drive them out. "The exact boundaries of the Walled City
> > cannot now be determined". (Wesley-Smith, Unequal Treaty). With no
> > wall to protect it (initially), the Walled City became a haven for
> > crooks and drug addicts, as the Hong Kong Police had no right to
> enter
> > the City (and mainland China refused to take care of it).
> >
> > The 1949 foundation of the Peoples' Republic of China added
> thousands
> > of refugees to the population, many from Guangzhou, and by this
> time,
> > Britain had had enough, and simply adopted a 'hands-off' policy. A
> > murder that occurred in Kowloon in 1959 set off a small diplomatic
> > crisis, as the two nations each tried to get the other to claim
> > responsibility for a vast tract of land now virtually ruled by
> > anti-Manchurian Triads. (The Triad is a collective term that
> > describes many branches of the underground society based in Hong
> > Kong). The Triads' rule lasted up until the mid-1970s, when a
> series
> > of over 3,000 police raids occurred in Kowloon. With the Triads'
> power
> > diminished, a strange sort of synergy blossomed, and the Walled
> City
> > began to grow almost organically, the square buildings folding up
> into
> > one another as thousands of modifications were made, virtually
> none by
> > architects, until hundreds of square metres were simply a kind of
> > patchwork monolith. Labyrinthine corridors ran through the
> monolith,
> > some of those being former streets (at the ground level, and often
> > clogged up with trash), and some of those running through upper
> > floors, practically between buildings. The only rules of
> construction
> > were twofold: electricity had to be provided to avoid fire, and the
> > buildings could be no more than about fourteen stories high
> (because
> > of the nearby airport). A mere eight municipal pipes somehow
> provided
> > water to the entire structure (although more could have come from
> > wells). By the early 1980s, Kowloon had an estimated population of
> > 35,000 - with a crime rate far below the Hong Kong average, despite
> > the notable lack of any real law enforcement.
> >
> > Over time, both the British and Chinese governments found this
> > massive, anarchic city to be a bit much - despite the low crime, if
> > the 'Black Market' ever had a physical location, this would have
> been
> > it, and needless to say, the sanitary conditions were, well, a bit
> > wanting. [Some Post WWII History above from the "Free
> Dictionary.com".]
> >
> > April 24, 1975, Hong Kong officials quoted as saying "Walled City
> is
> > not under the jurisdiction of the [Hong Kong] government" (South
> China
> > Morning Post).
> >
> > After the Joint Declaration in 1984 The Sino-British Joint
> Declaration
> > on the Question of Hong Kong (The Joint Declaration), was signed by
> > the Prime Ministers of the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the
> > United Kingdom (UK) governments on December 19, 1984 in Beijing.
> The
> > Declaration entered into force with the exchange of instruments of
> > ratification on May 27, 1985 and was registered by the PRC and UK
> > governments at the United Nations on June 12, 1985. After the joint
> > declaration in 1984, China allowed British authorities to demolish
> the
> > City and resettle its inhabitants. The mutual decision to tear down
> > the walled city was made in 1987.
> >
> > Summary:
> > From the De Jure standpoint:
> >
> > a. From the HKK-British paradigm, the enclave existed for
> about
> > 14 months (a little longer from the British home government that
> was
> > not dependent upon the New Territories Orders), 1898-99.
> >
> > b. From the Chinese standpoint, it started to exist as non-
> leased
> > enclave within leased New Territories at start of lease 1898; it
> > ceased to exist as sovereignly differentiatable from surrounding
> > occupied territory only during Japanese occupation 1941-5 and it
> > returned to exist as non-leased territory surrounded by leased
> > trerritory in 1945 when GB power returned so that exercise of lease
> > terms could be resumed.
> >
> > From the de facto standpoint, Kowloon existed as enclave within the
> > leased area under British sovereignty from beginning of the New
> > Territories lease until revocation in 1899, was in limbo because
> the
> > weak Chinese government of the time could not exercise objections
> to
> > British actions until the Japanese took it in 1941 when it ceased
> to
> > be either under British or Chinese control. It formed again when
> the
> > Japanese left and lease terms resumed, but was under nominal
> Chinese
> > "control" until lease ended with British exercising minor
> > administrative power when defense (civil and military) of the
> leased
> > territory required (under the original provision of the lease from
> 1898).
> >
> > One can say that sovereignty was shared in certain aspects at
> certain
> > times,
>
> ok all very nice stuff len
> but it seems to me that the fact that one can say what you say here
> plus the fact that there were always clear indications of who was
> primarily in charge
> as expressed in wordings like
> insofar as is not inconsistent with the defense of such & such
> etc
> etc
> means
> again
> close but no obvious cigar yet
>
>
> also
> it may be worth reminding ourselves that rebirth of enclaves isnt
> the same thing as rebirth of exclaves
>
> political changes could renew or revive a nonexclave enclave border
> approximately or even precisely i suppose
> whether anything was actually revived or not
> since there is no enduring entity that this supposed renewal keeps
> belonging to
> but it comprises only itself each time it comes up
> & is thus a new & distinct entity at the time of each incarnation
>
>
> so i at least dont see anything in kowloon yet that is even remotely
> like the former amaz exclave enclaves
> which we were considering
> & which were a case of first black & then white but never gray
> & which occasioned this quest or question
>
> nor is anybody denying or disliking anything
> but just looking for real evidence of a quite definite & specific
> thing
>
> proof of an exception that proves a rule
> by actually going from black to white
> & then back to black again
>
> unless this really is the nonesuch & impossibility i imagine
>
>
> but as an international enclave that existed and that came and
> > went and returned (from at lease someone's official sovereign
> > standpoint) can't be denied.
> >
> > LN