For us and most who read the whole thread we could
tell that Mike D. was the Mike that Arif meant. But
for the Turtle-ian pop-ins it might be best to
distinguish when a message thread is mostly among two
people with the same first name.
Are you sure the link works? I don't see a map at
http://www.gov.am/enversion/regional_7/regional.htm
--- aletheiak <
aletheiak@...> wrote:
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Arif Samad
> <fHoiberg@y...> wrote:
> > There was such a hue and cry over the AMAZ
> enclaves
> > over the last two weeks or so that I probably
> should
> > have e-mailed earlier. But I am lazy and here is
> what
> > I want to say. If it seems like I am trying to
> say
> > Mike is wrong, it is only because I believe he had
> the
> > last word and this subject deserves a cloudiness
> that
> > a last word does not provide. Both sides argued
> with
> > a certainty that I don't think the subject
> deserved.
> > To me, unless two countries say so AND shows it so
> on
> > their maps, the existence or non-existence of an
> > enclave is somewhere in the middle.
>
> fresh armenian map
> http://www.gov.am/enversion/regional_7/regional.htm
>
> azeri testimonies you may have missed
> http://www.travel-images.com/az-agstafa.html
> http://bisnis.doc.gov/bisnis/country/981203az.htm
>
>
> a clave that is no longer functioning or
> dysfunctioning as a clave
> is in fact no longer a clave but a former clave
>
> no one has yet been able to give a single example of
> a clave that
> has come back from the dead
>
> & that is because it would go against nature for one
> to do so
>
> such places are holdouts & pockets & backwaters by
> definition
> & once the plug is pulled on them they dont fill up
> again as a rule
>
> & indeed it would be crazy to try to restore them
> when everyone & everything is striving to fix or
> eliminate their ill
> effects
> if at all possible
>
>
> & when they stop performing as claves it surely
> means they dont
> exist as claves any more
> but as something else
>
>
> That means I am
> > not willing to say that the enclaves exist but
> neither
> > does it surely mean they don't exist. It is even
> > suggested that the Berlin enclaves were not true
> > enclaves and somewhat validly so as Germanies and
> > Berlins were zones and not countries until
> reunited.
> > I still considered them enclaves but it wouldn't
> be
> > wrong to think they wre not. I think Mike is
> putting
> > way too much insistence on what is his vision to
> the
> > exclusion of all others on the subject of its
> > existence.
> > I especially thought the idea that it didn't exist
> in
> > certain recent maps means it doesn't exist anymore
> > glaringly wrong.
>
> wait my friend
>
> that was not my idea
> but a misrepresentation of my idea
> given so repeatedly that you even believe i am
> insisting on it now
>
> & so no wonder you think my mind is clouded
> yikes
>
>
> but werent you yourself just pleading for cloudiness
>
> so it is you who are cloudy here
> isnt it
> by your own wish & choice
>
>
> i seem clear enough to me tho
> as i desire to be
>
>
> & i am not insisting too much but just enough to
> give you the
> proof you yourself are asking for
>
>
> American and Western European maps
> > have clouded Mike and almost everybody else's mind
> on
> > the subject that what maps draw are imaginary
> lines
> > and not statements of facts. These lines can be
> > imagined by different countries according to their
> own
> > thought. I have seen enclaves appear and
> disappear
> > from Bangladeshi maps two or three times knowing
> full
> > well that they did exist. Just because it didn't
> show
> > up on a map does not mean it didn't exist. I
> wouldn't
> > be surprised if such uncertain boundary mapping
> was
> > the norm instead of the exception outside the
> Western
> > countries.
> > Much more valid is the point that the enclaves
> > disppeared in the heat of war. However, we should
> not
> > also take that as gospel. Many countries have
> taken
> > over areas that were later identified as not
> belonging
> > to them.
>
> this last point is true
>
> but again
> it has never been true of claves so far as we know
>
> once they fall apart
> they just arent worth the effort to reconstruct
>
> only a clavophile who thinks they are so cute &
> precious would
> even entertain such a preposterous thought
>
>
> & the following comments are really not applicable
> to the
> situation at hand
> which involves claves in particular
> rather than borders in general
>
> Most countries still do not agree to make
> > Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel even though
> de
> > facto it has been the capital since taken over in
> a
> > war. Taiwan still exist in many eyes but not de
> jure
> > so. For a long time, Western Sahara was seen as
> part
> > of Morocco in many maps and was de facto so until
> it
> > reverted back in existence later.
> > We should not however discount Mike's contention
> that
> > in many cases not hearing about a certain
> geographic
> > object may mean it may be going out of existence.
>
> just a suggestion of the obvious rather than any
> contention
>
> & after all
> my circumspection has already proved to be fully
> justified
>
> > Geographers can be notoriously slow at moments,
> > especially involving colonial fragments that the
> AMAZ
> > enclaves kind of are. I will give the example of
> > Junagadh. This fragment of Pakistan existed in
> > Pakistani maps for quite a long time after
> Pakistan
> > and India became independent. In truth, they
> didn't
> > exist and after the war in 1965, it was formalized
> to
> > be so. There is a good chance a similar thing may
> be
> > happening in AMAZ.
>
> ok so now you seem to want to agree with me after
> all
> notwithstanding the 1993 & 2001 azeri map stamps to
> the
> contrary depicting the status quo ante 1990
>
> well i can accept that
>
> i have never thought much of propaganda map stamps
> anyway
> as evidence of anything
> let alone as the basis for resurrecting a dead clave
>
> for these are not matters of opinion but matters of
> practical fact
>
>
> > In conclusion, whether an enclave exists or not
> exist
> > is really a person's decision unless there really
> is
> > no evidence the other way. Most enclaves over
> time in
> > history probably have been thought about enclaves
> by
> > some, but most likely not everybody.
> > Arif
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We
> finish.
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
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