Mike, this doesn't really seem delirious or
imperceptible.
Nice job on finding a small scale map which of course
couldn't show any other claves whether or not it
wanted to.
Still waiting for the responses to 15388. Maybe
you've also ignored 15405 in addition to 15388 and
15365. :)
Cyrillic is only part of what you would need to know.
Azerbaijani used it for quite awhile but is now
"officially" back to Latin characters. Though of
course this decade or so long transition is slow, as
many transitions are. So the Cyrillic script could
likely be fine, but you still need to know the
language. And of course Armenian uses its own script,
plus you need to know that language too. Depending on
which villages you want to send this stuff to. Unless
you are suggesting we use Russian???
--- aletheiak <
aletheiak@...> wrote:
> so many question marks
>
> so imperceptible a question
>
> so delirious a rant
>
> but here you can see the 4 more or less de jure
> azerbaijan
> political exclaves & the 1 more or less de jure
> armenia political
> exclave currently acknowledged by the cia
> clavoscopist at least
>
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/armenia_pol_20
> 02.jpg
>
> & here you can see the ethnic & de facto political
> armenian
> exclave of nagorno karabakh
>
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/azerbaijan.gif
> which armenia has occupied since the 1994 cease fire
>
> along with some 16 percent of the rest of azerbaijan
> territory
> in areas unspecified by the cia & not indicated here
> in outline
> but likely adjacent to nagorno karabakh &or to de
> jure armenia
>
> in other words
> the places where the present effectivities of one
> country end &
> those of the other begin are actually unknown by us
>
> & there are in fact multiple question marks
> along their several effective borders
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> Nadybal"
> <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > "... a clave in particular namely nagorno
> karabakh...????
> Nagorno
> > has never been a political enclave - never
> anything more more
> than an
> > ethnic one coalesced by force with a couple of
> pockets of the
> "other
> > side's people" still in it. Countries composed
> "of, by and for"
> only
> > one founding ethnic group are "out", if you hadn't
> heard - they
> are
> > despised, not to be recognized. Being "out" is
> why we have the
> demise
> > of European nation states that are losing their
> characters as
> homes
> > for the communal protection of Germans alone in
> the case of
> Germany,
> > as is the case for Denmark as a home for Danish
> alone, and
> as in the
> > case of London was as a capital for the British
> alone, etc. As
> these
> > countries are infiltrated by immigrants who flee
> their home
> countries
> > rather than organize and fight for good
> government, the return,
> for
> > example, of a Spain under the Moors within which
> the
> "Spanish" become
> > like "Nagornos" isn't hard to contemplate.
> >
> >
> > LN
> >
> >
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "aletheiak"
> <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, Michael
> Kaufman
> > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > Is there evidence you have which would make
> you
> > > > believe that the two enclaves south of Tatli
> no longer
> > > > exist?
> > >
> > > fair question
> > > & i must answer no
> > > not any hard or direct evidence that would
> > > make
> > > me
> > > believe
> > > that
> > >
> > > but the fact that the countries involved have
> been at war with
> > > each other since even before the soviet collapse
> > > & the fact that so much of the fighting has been
> over their
> > > boundaries in general & the possession of a
> clave in
> particular
> > > namely nagorno karabakh
> > > where nobody even knows who owns what any longer
> > > or at least i dont know
> > > all leads me to be at least a little circumspect
> about
> presuming
> > > indefinite continuation of any particular detail
> of the status
> quo
> > > ante 1988 anywhere in the greater amaz area
> > >
> > > The latest topomap brought to this group shows
> > > > them there. No one in this group has shown any
> kind
> > > > of international treaty or official accord
> suggesting
> > > > otherwise (to this point). Brendan earlier
> brought a
> > > > very nice piece to us from the Serb embassy
> discussing
> > > > the Sastavci enclave, for example. So if
> someone had
> > > > something like that to share that would be
> good and
> > > > helpful.
> > >
> > > yes good idea
> > >
> > > some evidence
> > >
> > > any evidence
> > >
> > > &or anything just very nice or helpful to share
> > >
> > > yes that might well be plenty too
> > >
> > > Or if someone has a new official topomap
> > > > that would be helpful. Or at least anything
> other
> > > > than "well I can't prove they don't exist but
> I
> > > > challenge you to prove they do hahahaha."
> > >
> > > yikes
> > > i think i see what has happened here
> > > improbable as it is
> > >
> > > i actually did say something other than that in
> message
> 15333
> > > to which your quotation of me here apparently
> refers
> > > but i said it as follows
> > >
> > >
> > > quote
> > > i certainly cant prove the negative
> > >
> > > rather it is the job of the clavoscopist to
> prove the positive
> > > close quote
> > >
> > > if i may say it again just that way
> > >
> > > rather than the way you have put it between
> quotation marks
> here
> > >
> > >
> > > unless you were taking liberties with a
> different passage of
> mine
> > > i can no longer even recognize from your
> supposed quotation
> > >
> > >
> > > but did you just need me to say this one a
> little differently
> > >
> > >
> > > is that what you mean by
> > > at least anything other than
> > > your misrepresentation of it
> > >
> > > well then how is this
> > >
> > >
> > > i only think the clavoscopist
> > > whether that is me or you or whoever aspires to
> be one
> > > has this job or function or role of actually
> seeing the clave
> > > because this word in plain barbarian just means
> > > the person who sees the clave
> > >
> > > & job is too loaded a word for bp anyway
> > > so i will be glad to say something other than
> that too
> > >
> > > better to say play or honors or move or caper
> > > or something more like that anyway
> > >
> > > because for me this is just an extremely light
> game
> > > & i really cant & dont take any of it including
> myself very
> heavily
> > >
> > > not that i blame anyone who does
> > > but it is just fun with me
> > >
> > > as i have been saying since message 4
> > >
> > >
> > > so let me take the opportunity to correct myself
> while saying
> at
> > > least anything other than i actually said
> > > as well as at least anything other than you said
> i said
> > >
> > > here goes
> > >
> > > pay attention now
> > >
> > > it is the
> > > p l a y
> > > of the clavoscopist to prove the positive
> > >
> > >
> > > But again,
> > > > lacking (at least collectively in BP context)
> any of
> > > > this evidence to suggest the claves no longer
> exist,
> > > > there's no reason to assume by default that
> they don't
> > > > exist.
> > >
> > > i agree
> > > & i dont think i have assumed they dont exist
> > > do you
> > >
> > > do you assume by default i have assumed they
> dont exist
> > >
> > > i believe i have been entirely unassuming in
> this matter
> > >
> > > but i will let you assume even more of the
> assuming if you
> wish
> > >
> > > complete
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ok len you cant be blamed for thinking we
> were
> > > > > talking about
> > > > > enclaves on stamps because the message title
> still
> > > > > does say
> > > > > enclaves on stamps
> > > > > even now
> > > > > oops
> > > > >
> > > > > but the claves we were discussing in the
> text you
> > > > > have added to
> > > > > here are not the ones on the stamps that the
> thread
> > > > > began with
> > > > > & that you probably still have in mind
> > > > >
> > > > > rather these claves are not on any stamps at
> all
> > > > > that we know of
> > > > > but only on a 1976 &or 1978 map
> > > > > so far as we know
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > & i dont believe there is any question of
> nihilism
> > > > > or any other sort
> > > > > of denial here
> > > > >
> > > > > rather we were only following up on what i
> think
> > > > > chris or
> > > > > someone else had previously & i think very
> sensibly
> > > > > said of
> > > > > these maybeclaves
> > > > > namely
> > > > > ob sie je eine reale rolle gespielt haben
> ist
> > > > > unbekannt
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > or in plain barbarian
> > > > >
> > > > > whether they
> > > > > e v e r
> > > > > actually functioned as claves
> > > > > is
> > > > > unknown
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > evidently a healthy agnosticism rather than
> any
> > > > > nihilism there
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > & mike
> > > > > when the banter gets so shrill as this
> > > > > dont you worry the turtle might stick his
> head up
> > > > > from his mozart
> > > > > again as he last did in message 13685
> > > > > hahahahaha
> > > > > i can just see him asking us to cancel his
> > > > > subscription again
> > > > > hahaha
> > > > > certainly one of our funniest moments
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > but anyway i still really dont follow you
> here
> > > > > so please just tell me
> > > > > quietly & simply if possible
> > > > > exactly what i am ignoring that i did say
> > > > > & exactly which of your writings i am
> refusing to
> > > > > read
> > > > > so i can at least consider or reconsider
> what you
> > > > > mean
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > & i dont think any of us is guilty of
> anything
> > > > >
> > > > > but i do think we are all super heroes
> > > > >
> > > > > in fact i am sure of it
> > > > >
> > > > > we are all positively divine
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "L. A.
> > > > > Nadybal"
> > > > > <lnadybal@c...> wrote:
> > > > > > Map stamps are usually issued to press
> border
> > > > > claims - it
> > > > > takes too
> > > > > > much deliberate work in creating a stamp
> showing
> > > > > an exclave
> > > > > for the
> > > > > > reasoning human being to think that what
> is
> > > > > pictured on map
> > > > > stamps
> > > > > > doesn't exist (or didn't when issued).
> What's on
> > > > > new stamps
> > > > > (and
> > > > > > these are relatively new) does exist in
> the mind
> > > > > of the stamp
> > > > > issuing
> > > > > > party, and you can be certain that in the
> mind of
> > > > > the issuer, it
> > > > > > "hasn't been 20-odd years since it was
> last heard
> > > > > of". Your
> > > > > logic is
> > > > > > like like saying Columbus hadn't "heard
> of" the
> > > > > Americas prior
> > > > > to
> > > > > > 1492, and therefore, it wasn't there or
> that it
> > > > > was and had gone
> > > > > away
> > > > > > at some earlier point in time if it had
> ever been
> > > > > there. Nihilist
> > > > > > philosophy. The Indians who greeted
> Columbus on
> > > > > his arrival
> > > > > were
> > > > > > there - they'd been hearing of exclave
> America for
> > > > > quite some
> > > > > time.
> > > > > > LN
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael
> > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > I am not delusional. I am not
> misrepresenting
> > > > > what
> > > > > > > you say. You are just ignoring what you
> > > > > actually DID
> > > > > > > say. You refuse to read what I wrote or
> answer
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > questions I have posed to you
> specifically.
> > > > > > > Again read what you wrote: "& i
> certainly cant
> > > > > prove
> > > > > > > the negative rather it is the job of the
> > > > > clavoscopist
> > > > > > > to prove the affirmative" This is
> tantamount to
> > > > > > > assuming guilty until proven innocent.
> Guilty
> > > > > until
> > > > > > > proven innocent mentality? - Now THAT'S
> > > > > delusional...
> > > > > > > If you cast doubt on these 2 claves as
> of 1978,
> > > > > cast
> > > > > > > doubt on everything you see.
> > > > > > > Reread message 15122 - there is no need
> to dress
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > like a superhero. :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ah but now you appear to be
> deliberately
> > > > > > > > misunderstanding as
> > > > > > > > well as deliberately misrepresenting
> what i
> > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > said & did
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > my questioning what you believe &
> claim exists
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > & even my wondering out loud if anyone
> has
> > > > > seen any
> > > > > > > > evidence
> > > > > > > > of it at any time in the past quarter
> of a
> > > > > century
> > > > > > > > for starters
> > > > > > > > is not the same as assuming it no
> longer
> > > > > exists
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > nor the same as saying it doesnt exist
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > let alone as wanting it not to exist
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you are not even close on any of the
> above
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > for this is not me mike
> > > > > > > > nor my reasoning
> > > > > > > > but only your specific self delusions
> about me
> > > > > & it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & such is the grandeur of your
> delusions that
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > are even
> > > > > > > > reckoning them common sense now
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > but i just dont share any of this
> sense with
> > > > > you in
> > > > > > > > common
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > indeed my vote is of no consensus & no
> > > > > confidence in
> > > > > > > > any of
> > > > > > > > what you are now saying about me
> > > > > > > > or about anything here below
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & you only grow more delirious as you
> go
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > a map
> > > > > > > > & the representations on it
> > > > > > > > like all other data
> > > > > > > > are never thorough
> > > > > > > > but are always selective & necessarily
> partial
> > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > as well as dated
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & often just plain wrong besides
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > & thinking they necessarily arent
> could be the
> > > > > > > > mother of all
> > > > > > > > delusion
> > > > > > > > as of all your specific delusions here
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael
> > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > It's not a fantasy, it's common
> sense. The
> > > > > maps
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > borders were thoroughly done over in
> 1978.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > > claves
> > > > > > > > > were left as they were. You can't
> just
> > > > > assume
> > > > > > > > > something goes away because you
> yourself
> > > > > want it
> > > > > > > > to go
> > > > > > > > > away. What real evidence do you
> have saying
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > longer exist?
> > > > > > > > > By your reasoning, anyone could say
> that the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > > > exclaves no longer exist either
> because they
> > > > > > > > haven't
> > > > > > > > > been "heard from" since the date of
> the last
> > > > > map
> > > > > > > > > showing them. If that is 2002
> > > > > (hypothetically),
> > > > > > > > does
> > > > > > > > > that mean we should question whether
> they've
> > > > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > > for the last 2 years? (No.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > exactly
> > > > > > > > > > you have finally hit it in your
> afterword
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > > > > maestro
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & the tripoints sometimes do
> indeed move
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > etc
> > > > > > > > > > so we only know for sure what was
> > > > > supposedly
> > > > > > > > true at
> > > > > > > > > > the time
> > > > > > > > > > they were last visited &or
> reported etc
> > > > > > > > > > so i absolutely agree with you
> about the
> > > > > > > > tripoints &
> > > > > > > > > > claves equally
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & thats one reason for & benefit
> of
> > > > > reporting on
> > > > > > > > > > them repeatedly
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & you have proved these particular
> crumbs
> > > > > > > > existed
> > > > > > > > > > circa 1976 &
> > > > > > > > > > possibly as recently as 1978
> > > > > > > > > > tho i believe your logic is still
> > > > > questionable
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > in msg 15345
> > > > > > > > > > hahaha
> > > > > > > > > > however unworth questioning just
> to reduce
> > > > > by 2
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > > > during which i still do believe
> they
> > > > > havent been
> > > > > > > > > > heard from
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & in the meantime whole
> governments &
> > > > > nation
> > > > > > > > states
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > come & gone ferociously several
> times all
> > > > > thru
> > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > which do in fact now recognize &
> mention
> > > > > all the
> > > > > > > > > > well known
> > > > > > > > > > classmates of these maybeclaves
> but have
> > > > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > > > never
> > > > > > > > > > mentioned these crumbs during at
> least 26
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > these
> > > > > > > > > > 28 years
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > so i am content to believe them
> real as of
> > > > > 1976
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > maybe 1978
> > > > > > > > > > & looking forward to more &
> fresher data
> > > > > > > > > > via whatever aspiring clavoscopist
> > > > > provides it
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & i have just been responding to
> your
> > > > > claim in
> > > > > > > > > > message 15272
> > > > > > > > > > of what you think we have
> > > > > > > > > > by telling you i know we once had
> them but
> > > > > i
> > > > > > > > > > seriously question if
> > > > > > > > > > we still have them
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > i am not stuck in your fantasy tho
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > & anyway time will tell
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In
> BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > Michael
> > > > > > > > > > Kaufman
> > > > > > > > > > <mikekaufman79@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > By the same token, the tripoint
> could
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > moved...maybe the cartogrophers
> just
> > > > > didn't
> > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > it. The AMAZGE tripoint could
> have
> > > > > moved (or
> > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > > > ceased to exist!) - it's just
> that it
> > > > > wasn't
> > > > > > > > shown
> > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > said, "if something isnt shown
> or said
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > > it wasnt shown or said not that
> it was
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > wasnt a
> > > > > > > > > > > fact."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- aletheiak <aletheiak@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > thanx
> > > > > > > > > > > > good idea specifically
> > > > > > > > > > > > & good for the aspiring
> clavoscopist
> > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > > > > diligent in any case
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > but one cant presume the
> cartographers
> > > > > knew
> > > > > > > > > > anything
> > > > > > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > > > > than what they actually drew
> or wrote
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > if something isnt shown or
> said
> > > > > > > > > > > > it only means it wasnt shown
> or said
> > > > > > > > > > > > not that it was or wasnt a
> fact
> > > > > > > > > > > > & not that anyone had any
> specific
> > > > > inkling
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > or even any
> > > > > > > > > > > > general awareness of it
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com,
> > > > > > > > "Lowell G.
> > > > > > > > > > > > McManus"
> > > > > > > > > > > > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike D. asked:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if the claves were
> discontinued
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > their borders couldnt &
> wouldnt
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > > > redrawn but only
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminated or forgotten
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > would the mapmakers have
> just
> > > > > scrawled a
> > > > > > > > big
> > > > > > > > > > > > purple cross
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > over each clave to let us
> know in
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > case
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > or exactly how would they
> redraw
> > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > vanished
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > short of erasing it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > which they couldnt do
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I the addition of a purple
> overprint
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > > > revision available,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the cartographers would
> likely have
> > > > > added
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > text
> > > > > > > > > > > > notation in
> > > > > > > > > > > > purple that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > such-and-such claves no
> longer
> > > > > existed. I
> > > > > > > > > > suggest
> > > > > > > > > > > > that you go
> > > > > > > > > > > > back and check
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the margins and legend of
> the map
> > > > > for such
> > > > > > > > > > purple
> > > > > > > > > > > > text.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Lowell G. McManus
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Leesville, Louisiana, USA
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________
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> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > __________________________________
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