& now comes an official vatican version
http://tinyurl.com/3gjob
not only depicting these twin itva segments faithfully following
some apparently curving feature or edge of the colonnade
but also showing a purely figural intermediate segment formed
by the similarly curvy projection or extension of these features
rather than by any straight line or series of straight lines
& all of these curves together would now appear to be based
not on the edge of the colonnade pedestal
nor on the lowest of its steps
as i was until recently supposing
nor indeed on the leading edges of the columnar plinths
as propounded by tullio aebischer in the italian pages recently
brought by peter
but more likely now
i would guess
itva here must be based on the leading edge of the leading
feature of the colonnade
including even the propylaea or outermost portal columns
hence my best guess continues
itva actually follows the basic roofline of the colonnade
as well as the roofline of the additional portal projections
all of which
tho not yet actually seen by us
are most probably curves rather than chords
or at least that is what this new map seems to be leading toward
dont you agree
also
at the bottom of the page is an aerial photo also making it clear
that at least the westernmost fortification corner does indeed
form an irregular manmade border in both the horizontal &
vertical dimensions
so i am fairly convinced
pending any contrary evidence
that we have already found more cigars here than we will ever
know what to do with
as well as the only known such cigars in the world
so oops on my previous oops
no longer attached
it appears arif was right in the first place
& now many times over too
--- In
BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
<orc@o...> wrote:
> for a complete & possibly better but still problematic english
> rendering of the possibly critical italian text or subtext please
see
> part 1 article 3 here
> http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/treaty.htm
>
> but can anyone who has seen the entire flight of steps
describe
> its length
>
> photos seem to indicate its height & width are irregular
>
> that much seems clear
>
> but what i would really like to see or fully imagine at this point
is
> an aerial view or architectural plan of the entire piazza with
> colonnades & steps in full detail
>
> also can anyone say
> are there any actual itva border markers to be found anywhere
> or is the whole itva shebang just defined by this possibly lost
> map & the outlines of certain buildings shown on it
> with the possible help of 2 possibly conflicting textual
references
>
>
> for all these become the critical questions in determining if the
> border really follows any manmade features
> let alone any nonstraight ones
>
>
> & if the border is truly delimited entirely by the outer edges of
> buildings
> then not just the main cigars but a whole box of others may
well
> await us here on itva
> & perhaps only here
> in the entire world of de jure international borders
>
>
> for surely a border delimited by the outermost edge of the
entire
> colonnade & projections cannot yet be dismissed out of hand
in
> favor of some still questionable division of these structures
>
> plus
>
> elsewhere along itva as defined by this map some other
> nonstraight edges will surely be found for us to celebrate
> for their irregularity
> & i would guess
> not only in the horizontal dimension
>
> --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "acroorca2002"
> <orc@o...> wrote:
> > --- In BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com, "Lowell G.
McManus"
> > <mcmanus71496@m...> wrote:
> > > I, too, would love to know exactly how the Lateran Treaty of
> > 1929 delimited the
> > > boundary along and about the colonnade.
> >
> > well if i understand the italian rightly in
> > http://www.globalgeografia.com/europa/scv1.htm
> > the delimitation is primarily indicated not by the treaty text but
by
> a
> > map that is annexed to the treaty
> >
> > & tho the best available italian & vatican copies or versions of
> > this map differ slightly
> > as indicated in figures 2a & 2b therein
> > they nevertheless apparently agree in showing itva follow the
> > outer curvature of the outer colonnade
> >
> >
> > however there are also in the treaty text 2 verbal descriptions
of
> > the limits of italian police jurisdiction
> >
> > but i cant tell if these were intended as further substantiation
of
> > the delineation shown on the map
> > nor can i be sure they even agree with each other
> >
> > one apparently indicates
> > the outer lines & prolongation of the colonnade
> >
> > & the other apparently indicates
> > the foot of the steps leading to the basilica
> >
> >
> > it is noteworthy that one possible reading of the latter
> description
> > is apparently what is used in figures 3a & 3b
> >
> > but this is apparently not the only possible reading of that
> > description
> >
> > nor does it take any account of the second verbal description
> >
> >
> > it is evidently possible however to read both verbal
> descriptions
> > & the map all together in the single sense that itva follows
the
> > curving edge of the outermost projection of the entire
> colonnade
> > & therefore specifically the curving edge of its lowest stair
step
> > rather than the straight outer edges of the columnar plinths
> >
> >
> > the only difficulty i can see with this most expansive possible
> > reading is that the flight of steps does not appear to be of
> > uniform height or width
> > evidently owing to the slope of the surrounding terrain
> >
> > indeed
> > since the steps are entirely missing from some of the
pictures
> > it seems this reading might require one to project the curve
of
> > their lowest riser entirely around the colonnade
> >
> > & if this is correct then only some part or parts of this curving
> > border segment would actually follow a manmade feature
> > while the rest of the sector would merely describe the figure
of
> > the projection of that feature
> >
> > but in any case that would net us at least 1 real cigar
> >
> > however it is only a hypothesis & possibly an ignorant one at
> that
> >
> >
> > for an alternative cigar if necessary
> > i have been noticing in these same maps how the opposite
> end
> > of the vatican border likewise appears to follow some also
> > possibly irregular walls of some edifice
> >
> > so even if the curving colonnade edge is indeed a bust
> > we still might not have to go very far to find a true example of
a
> > border delineation that follows a nonstraight manmade
feature